How are people getting away with streaming music on Twitch?

[time0ut]

Of course it is but you have to remember that many of the people on Twitch who play "copyrighted music" also make money themselves doing so from donations, advertisements and subscriptions.

I personally don't have an issue with people playing music for free if they get nothing out of it but when you start making money and use someone else's tools or entertainment to do so, then it becomes an issue.

Agreed. /10c

[vipicethorn]

It is actually, the law is the law and we can debate it as much as we like but we cannot change it by talking about it on an MMO forum. There was a huge stink a few months ago because thousands of channels were getting copyright strikes for having music playing in the background, even a few seconds of a recognisable piece is enough for a strike.

Different countries have different laws.
As an example, none of the copyright laws in USA counts in Denmark. So We have to go out from, that it's the local law that counts.

Which means, that if i as a dane am streaming music on twitch, and some copyright organization from USA tells me to stop it, then i can just ignore them.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course it is but you have to remember that many of the people on Twitch who play "copyrighted music" also make money themselves doing so from donations, advertisements and subscriptions.

I personally don't have an issue with people playing music for free if they get nothing out of it but when you start making money and use someone else's tools or entertainment to do so, then it becomes an issue.

Hey look, i made this tool called a combustion engine! This is the engine that 99.999% of all vehicles use, including racing cars used by the entertainment iindustry, namely such shows as formel 1 and Le Man.
So you are not allowed to use this TOOL in your show, as it was me who invented it and copyrighte/patented it, without paying me royalities...
---------------------------

Can you see just how idiotic that sounds? What you are telling me being saying i am not allowed to use other peoples tools, is the same as saying, that if someone did something before me, i am not allowed to do the same.

[Dominian]

It's weird, isn't it? I posted a private raiding clip with some added electronic music on youtube and within the next 20 minutes, it got removed due to copyright infringement. So then can someone please explain to me how almost every streamer on twitch is using spotify and youtube for background music on their stream because either 1. it's not copyright infringement or if it is 2. why the hell is no one is penalizing them?

So basically, you're mad that youtube is making you do things because copy right claims and with that you jump on your high horse trying to ruin game streaming for the masses because of a childish complaint of fairness, to only you.

[Clrg]

Until big companies start to push twitch for letting people stream copyrighted music nothing will happen. YT have a problem right now, shady studies claiming copyright in music that they dont own, there was a guy that composed it own music and a random studio claimed that song.

[Deleted]

Can you see just how idiotic that sounds? What you are telling me being saying i am not allowed to use other peoples tools, is the same as saying, that if someone did something before me, i am not allowed to do the same.

A more apt comparison would be where you use an application such as Pro Tools or Logic Audio to make music without licensing the program itself, using commercial audio banks for instruments and then sell that music or publicly perform it for revenue.

[vipicethorn]

A more apt comparison would be where you use an application such as Pro Tools or Logic Audio to make music without licensing the program itself, using commercial audio banks for instruments and then sell that music or publicly perform it for revenue.

No, it would be creating and selling music with the program, without the audio banks.

Xstreamer uses audio in the background in the stream, to set a mood in the stream, while proving his own self made content.
So he is using A tool, the music, to create something new and sells it.
How is that wrong at all?

When you stream, you are creating content. Using music in the stream, while providing own self made content(for example a learning stream for LoL) is simply creating new content with already existing tools.
how can that possibly be wrong to do?

[ro9ue]

I hate to say this, but give it time. Twitch is still growing so there is no telling how it will be in a year or so.

Growth will actually hurt the flexibility on copyright infringement. Because YouTube is so big, it has a big target on it's back. The best thing for Twitch to do is to stay at a comfortable size and stay in the shadows a bit.

[Deleted]

How is that wrong at all?

Do I really, really have to explain why taking someone else's work and selling it as your own is not only morally wrong but plain out illegal?

It doesn't matter if it's "in the background", you are still using their work without compensating a penny for it. Youtube allows tagging videos for exactly this purpose - the people who actually made the music can allow using it but get revenue for their hard work.

[Orange Joe]

Growth will actually hurt the flexibility on copyright infringement. Because YouTube is so big, it has a big target on it's back. The best thing for Twitch to do is to stay at a comfortable size and stay in the shadows a bit.

Thats kinda what I was getting at. As twitch becomes bigger they will have to police these things more. Like youtube does.

[Kathandira]

Music in the background will draw people in. If you like the music the streamer plays, you would be more inclined to listen in.

In that sense, the music is being used to increase the amount of viewers, which will increase your views, likes, shares, and popularity. Which all of that will increase your revenue.

If you look at it that way, the music is being used to make money.

[MrExcelion]

Give it a year or two I guess and Twitch might have some of those same rules. We've already seen them crack down on sub giveaways. TOS is only going to get tighter over time, not looser

[Overdispersion]

So basically, you're mad that youtube is making you do things because copy right claims and with that you jump on your high horse trying to ruin game streaming for the masses because of a childish complaint of fairness, to only you.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm trying to do because I'm sure the music industry is looking at this thread right now and have been oblivious of the issue.

[VoxQuantum]

I stream on twitch, and I don't make a penny. I put in background music as its something to chill out to when I game, sure people can request songs if they like, but if they follow me or like my stuff, it doesn't make them entitled people with automatic ability to request what they like and get away with it.

When I upload highlights of the broadcast to youtube, I immediately stick it into Private mode so then YT can run its algorithm to see if it detects music, if it does, then it has an ability to remove the songs out of the background, and publish it afterwards. I currently have an infringement on one video because I sing part of the song Broken Wings by Alterbridge. Cant get that removed, so ive acknowledged the copyright and leave it as that.

[Barnabas]

It's obvious that the copyright holders aren't using twitch and complaining. If they did then the stream would be taken down immediately. Youtube uses an algorithm to detect copyright infringement and twitch does not. You have to physically write a letter to twitch.

http://www.twitch.tv/user/legal?page=dmca

[Xs]

Twitch is a giant pool of illegalities, their ToS tries to pass blame onto the streamers, but that in-fact makes it void, and under California law (makes no difference where the streamer is) they should be shut down. For some of the top streamers, they'd be paying ~80% of their income to licence fees to be able to broadcast the amount of music they do to the amount of people that watch, to give you an idea of how much lost revenue the music providers are getting from Twitch. Twitch could implement a radio licence of sorts, where the streamer paid them for the songs they broadcast, but the charges that get incurred for multiple streams are barely discounted at all. If you looked at some of the less popular streamers, around the 250 views mark, if they streamed for 2 hours a day, they'd be looking at $900+ a year, now expand that out to some of the top LoL pro's for instance, who stream to 20k+ people for 4-8 hours a day, you can see the numbers get big quickly, and the discounts don't roll in as quickly (because you're seen as a profit making radio station, so you should be able to afford it), you're talking local radio station licences at that point, the kind that could cover a whole city or several towns.

By uploading and publishing your Broadcaster Content, you represent, and warrant that: (1) you are the creator and owner of the Broadcaster Content or otherwise have sufficient rights and authority to grant the rights granted herein; (2) your Broadcaster Content does not and will not (a) infringe, violate, or misappropriate any third-party right, including any copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret, moral right, privacy right, right of publicity, or any other intellectual property or proprietary right

That simply means you agree not to stream music, and they can take you down if you do, but they're still liable for every listener hour of 'damages' done.

[Cryptix]

Twitch is a giant pool of illegalities, their ToS tries to pass blame onto the streamers, but that in-fact makes it void, and under California law (makes no difference where the streamer is) they should be shut down. For some of the top streamers, they'd be paying ~80% of their income to licence fees to be able to broadcast the amount of music they do to the amount of people that watch, to give you an idea of how much lost revenue the music providers are getting from Twitch. Twitch could implement a radio licence of sorts, where the streamer paid them for the songs they broadcast, but the charges that get incurred for multiple streams are barely discounted at all. If you looked at some of the less popular streamers, around the 250 views mark, if they streamed for 2 hours a day, they'd be looking at $900+ a year, now expand that out to some of the top LoL pro's for instance, who stream to 20k+ people for 4-8 hours a day, you can see the numbers get big quickly, and the discounts don't roll in as quickly (because you're seen as a profit making radio station, so you should be able to afford it), you're talking local radio station licences at that point, the kind that could cover a whole city or several towns.


That simply means you agree not to stream music, and they can take you down if you do, but they're still liable for every listener hour of 'damages' done.

Twitch is a giant pool of illegalities, their ToS tries to pass blame onto the streamers, but that in-fact makes it void, and under California law (makes no difference where the streamer is) they should be shut down. For some of the top streamers, they'd be paying ~80% of their income to licence fees to be able to broadcast the amount of music they do to the amount of people that watch, to give you an idea of how much lost revenue the music providers are getting from Twitch. Twitch could implement a radio licence of sorts, where the streamer paid them for the songs they broadcast, but the charges that get incurred for multiple streams are barely discounted at all. If you looked at some of the less popular streamers, around the 250 views mark, if they streamed for 2 hours a day, they'd be looking at $900+ a year, now expand that out to some of the top LoL pro's for instance, who stream to 20k+ people for 4-8 hours a day, you can see the numbers get big quickly, and the discounts don't roll in as quickly (because you're seen as a profit making radio station, so you should be able to afford it), you're talking local radio station licences at that point, the kind that could cover a whole city or several towns.


That simply means you agree not to stream music, and they can take you down if you do, but they're still liable for every listener hour of 'damages' done.

Hmm.. Found this on a search and registered just to chime in... I noticed nobody ever mentioned the legality of actually streaming games. The same copyright rules apply to games as they do to music. Games are intellectual property as well, and twitch does not have the rights to any of the games on display. So by being a broadcaster and accepting ToS you warrant that you are the creator of the game/music/characters/voice acting/sound effects/visuals or anything else that you put into your stream [Broadcaster Content].....if you use the logic that you can't play copyright music, you can't show IP that you don't own rights to either. Of course the game industry loves Twitch....it's free advertising for their product and the game industry makes bank on players, not broadcasters directly. Music on the other hand....is the same damn thing...they use (and pay for) several sites to get their music out to snag who they make bank on...the listeners. However, the music industry doesn't look at twitch the same way a video game company would to make bank. They see "here we go again, they found ways to play our music for free" without keeping in mind companies like Spotify where all you would have to do is type in the song name and hit play over and over if you really just wanted to hear that song.

This whole thing seems like garbage to me. I understand the law is the law...but clearly only certain industries choose which laws to bank on. Could you imagine Twitch.TV's future if game creators started suing twitch and enforcing their right to revoke certain games off broadcasting. A broadcaster would then have to pay royalties based on time spent streaming so Twitch in turn could pay their royalties for even hosting a stream. The whole thing is indirect piracy....but Streaming is not pirating....eyes and ears to a murder do not make you a murderer just as much as seeing or hearing a game or music does not enforce any lawbreaking. If a broadcaster is playing a spotify playlist or cd that they paid for....it's no different than sharing music with a friend.

Throwing a house party with 500 random strangers blasting music: The cops show up.
Cops: "We were getting complaints about the noise level from your neighbors"
Me: "Oh thank heavens, I thought you were here to arrest me for illegally displaying the contents of my ipod music folder that I paid for to a crowd of people that did not pay anything to listen in"

It clearly isn't law they are enforcing. The question should be exactly.... Why are they muting when nothing illegal has taken place?

[Independent voter]

I bet Twitch's lawyers told them to shut down sites with copyrighted music. They probably can get sued if they don't try to police it. Youtube bans videos all them for suspected copyright infringement even if the person has legal use to the media.

Another side effect from living in litigious society.

[Deleted]

If it makes you feel better, use this example.

You go to a local show, and you see a band that you really liked. You walk over to their table, and take a CD. You do not pay for it, and you do not say thank you. You just take it, and leave.

Should I not report you? Should I "mind my own business"? Should I follow you outside and tell you that you privately what you did was wrong?

Good lord... is it 2012 again? Copying is not Stealing.

[Deleted]

You go to a local show, and you see a band that you really liked. You walk over to their table, and take a CD. You do not pay for it, and you do not say thank you. You just take it, and leave.

Stealing takes away from a limited quantity, pirating does not. Both are not ok, but they are definitely not the same.

[anakin57]

My guess is that nobody is reporting them.

This is my guess as well - once this occurs, Twitch will probably bring down the ban hammer real quick.