Can Fistweaving be viable?

[ZombiexCat]

Is there a build to make fistweaving viable in 5.4? Not to do crazy heals, but to be a .5 healer kind of like a Disc Priest just doing atonement healing. Would love to do this on fights that need a bit of extra healing, but not to be a main healer.

[iDrunkenheal]

Yes you can FW throughout SoO, but you will be a pretty big liability in a 25 (and probably in 10). FW gives you 0 control of your healing due to all of it being smart outside of VM procs. This means if someone is 21 yards away from you you will do 0 healing to them. (20 yards is not that far by the way range tend to stand 30-40 yards away).

rotation is:

xuen
ReM
chi wave
jab->BK (if it gives you two or more chi)
jab->tp

replace jab with sck global cancel when there are 3 or more targets

[Totaltotemic]

There is no possible way to make fistweaving nearly as potent as Atonement. A Disc Priest isn't 50% healer and 50% of a DPS, it's 110% of a healer and 50% of a DPS. Now, you can do 50% of a DPS and be 50% of a healer, but bear in mind that being 50% of a healer really, really sucks.

[ZombiexCat]

Okay but here's the thing about range. Since it's 20 yard range of the statue, couldn't you put the statue in between the ranged and the melee and it would work? 20 yards in any direction.

[Smurfz]

My answer would be yes and no. I can do some good numbers as far as dps is concerned on my MW. But, it's highly dependent on mana control. For instance, I can do 100k plus with CJL. However, I can't spam CJL none stop. It sucks mana really quick. So, the way I use Eminence heals which is kind of how I refer to them instead of calling it "fistweaving" is based on the situation and the dmg output. With my playstyle I don't just stick to Eminence heals. It depends on the fight and the amount of dmg that needs to be healed. But, the reason I call it eminence healing is because some people will exclude CJL from their rotation and then you get into Fine line playstyles with Lightingweaving and fistweaving and Zeal weaving. So, I just pull it all together as Eminence heals.

But, my point is you really have to be able to determine which ability you will be using depending on how much heals need to done at that moment in the fight

So, On my base auto attacks with Serpents zeal up. I do Half of the healing of my Soothing mist. But, it doesn't cost any mana and I do a small amount of dmg. So, if the dmg in that moment of the fight is low and I have no need to rush to heal anyone. You can pop a black out kick and tigers palm and sit on auto attack and let your eminence heals off of serpents zeal do the work for your. While doing this you might want to try and built up some stacks of Vital mists to quickly and cheaply pop a surging mist on someone when the dmg starts to spike again.

So that is for situations where half of you soothing mist is enough healing.

If you need to crank it up a notch. You can switch to casting CJL. Which my CJL with give me the same amount of healing as my soothing mist. But it doesn't allow me to get an insta cast of eveloping mist and surging mist.

If you have multiple targets you can use RJW or spinning crane kick. Which if you have Multiple targets 3 + can give you very impressive dmg output and provide AOE heals and will give you some Eminence heals.

If its a stack fight. You can have people stack on you and then you can keep the group up with RJW and do basic Fistweaving tactics on whatever you are fighting. With Jab, Blackout kick, tiger palm,

you can also use ReM or Expel harm to gain some Chi.

For most fights that I am in I try to keep ReM up as much as possible. It offers Chi and gives you the option to Uplift if there is ever a need.


And that is just some examples. The point is that "Straight" fistweaving is usually not how I play. I use Eminence heals situationally. But, If the group needs a focus heal....then the group needs a focus heal. If you are in a situations like. Sha of pride or Thok where the group needs AOE heals. I wouldn't suggest just going on auto attack and zeal weaving the fight. It would kind of be an asshole thing to do. So, you really have to try and us all of the abilities the mistweaver has. I am not going to tell you to stick to one or the other.

So, my answer to wiether or not Fistweaving is viable is Yes and No.

Oh, and yes you can position you statue to cover the Ranged DPS. I do it all the time. Infact, I have pissed off a number of healers on Immersius because with my statue I can take over 2/3 of the zone and it doesn't leave shit for them to heal.

[Pandamaan]

Bottom line YES....People who say it's not viable and arent much of a healer when you do it, just aren't doing it right. I have a monk healer in my guild that does like 150k dps on fights like protectors in 10man and still tops heals nearing 180k HPS, on a fight like heroic shamans he bursts 700k DPS and still topping heals. So all the bullshit aside, if you play it right its not only viable but extremely strong in the right hands.

[Leblue]

If there isn't a ton of damage going out there's no reason not to fistweave. So long as you're keeping ReM out and you bank enough chi to uplift when actual healing needs to be done that's pretty much how you'll want to play the class anyway. Part of getting really good at mistweaver is being able to seamlessly switch between dpsing and full on healing until the damage is lower then going back to healing.

Your statue can be used to focus half of your eminence healing (example: put it near the tanks so half your eminence healing always goes to tank healing) where you feel you need it more or where your group requires more healing.

On the subject of crackling jade lightning. To get the most out of it you'll want to use it during int procs (so if a trinket procs its a good time to channel it) as well as meta gem procs. CJL is subject to snap shotting meaning, if you cast it with .5 seconds left on an int proc/meta gem proc you get the benefits of it until you recast it, stop the channel, or finish the channel. The healer meta will make CJL free so consider that when you have a spare meta proc where you don't need to pump out surging mists with it.

Regardless how you go about it as a "fistweaver", you should always be sure to keep ReM out and bank chi for uplift. Pigeonholing yourself to half your toolkit is never a good idea.

[dennix]

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/r4xzv...e=13760#Dennix

here is a log me, back in the day.. its a combination of healing/lightningweaving.. (340k HPs, 140k DPs)
The thing with fistweaving is you need to be able to switch quickly in styles to keep raid alive. I'm positive a MW not doing dmg, is doing something wrong. So yea fistweaving is viable but situational.

A great fight is spoils HC for example. You can keep raid alive with ReM, some emergency heals and fistweave all the way. Which makes the fight rediculously easy if you struggle with the timer.

(i'm assuming the MW community sees lightningweaving as part of fistweaving nowadays??)

[Deleted]

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9818712577

[Smurfz]

The only thing I see wrong with http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9818712577 is right off the bat it says MW monks have no smart heals. I think over half of the MW's bag of tricks is smart heals....and they do have one very powerful shield.

I don't think MW monks need an abundance of shields as a personal opinion. Then we would just be a disc Priest.

I would say MW monks can be a very powerful class. But, it is not a simple point and click class. It's one of the more complicated classes I have played. But, I have seen same very Strong number off of MW monks in both DPS and HPS.

Draw backs to the mistweaver monk is the management. I find myself swapping out glyphs and talents almost every fight. We have tons of utility. But, in order to use all of it you need to swap out talents and glyphs for the fight Based on the abilities the player will be focusing on that fight. Also, the fact that it is not a pick up and play class. It's a study and practice class.

[Totaltotemic]

The only thing I see wrong with http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9818712577 is right off the bat it says MW monks have no smart heals. I think over half of the MW's bag of tricks is smart heals....and they do have one very powerful shield.

It's a thread on the official forums, which means it's guaranteed to be full of misinformation because no one except the person that posted it can edit it and the only moderator activity in class forums is for banning people or deleting threads. It's always funny when someone tries to link to the official forums, because if they weren't an awful cesspool of bad information and nonexistent moderation people wouldn't be posting here instead.

[Smurfz]

It's a thread on the official forums, which means it's guaranteed to be full of misinformation because no one except the person that posted it can edit it and the only moderator activity in class forums is for banning people or deleting threads. It's always funny when someone tries to link to the official forums, because if they weren't an awful cesspool of bad information and nonexistent moderation people wouldn't be posting here instead.

Well, I honestly HATE to do this because I have been trolled relentlessly in the past on Battle.net. So, I hate to be a troll myself.....But.

Mistweaver smartheals

*Surging Mist ( glyphed )
*Chi Wave
*All eminence Healing ( where I could honestly pool about 7 different attacks)
*Renewing Mist

** The big ass statue I seem to have to carry everywhere I go**

But, in all truth I don't really know how smart those heals are. I actually think of them more as "well informed" heals rather than smart heals. Sometimes my ReM is not very smart about what it does and I have blown Surged mist a few times and it didn't go where I wanted it to go. Sometimes these heals are dumb as F*ck.

[apepi]

I would say in 2v2 fistweaving is pretty acceptable if you are skilled enough. I mean you are not only fistweaving but you can strike a perfect balance, sometimes i do not even lose mana while doing it using the free surging mist procs.

[Deleted]

Well, I honestly HATE to do this because I have been trolled relentlessly in the past on Battle.net. So, I hate to be a troll myself.....But.

Mistweaver smartheals

*Surging Mist ( glyphed )
*Chi Wave
*All eminence Healing ( where I could honestly pool about 7 different attacks)
*Renewing Mist

** The big ass statue I seem to have to carry everywhere I go**

But, in all truth I don't really know how smart those heals are. I actually think of them more as "well informed" heals rather than smart heals. Sometimes my ReM is not very smart about what it does and I have blown Surged mist a few times and it didn't go where I wanted it to go. Sometimes these heals are dumb as F*ck.

Renewing Mist isn't smart healing. The other heals would barely compose 15% of your healing on a typical fight? Compare that to certain other healers where that number is as high as 80%...

[Smurfz]

Renewing Mist isn't smart healing. The other heals would barely compose 15% of your healing on a typical fight? Compare that to certain other healers where that number is as high as 80%...

Those are some very bias numbers. Gift of the serpent along with eminence if the player used a Fistweaving/ lightning weaving style would more than likely be 50 percent of your heals plus. I would have to look at logs and what not to get an exact number. But based on memory of my own actions they well above 50 percent.

So, the numbers are bias because of the fact it depends on the play style of the player. Assuming the player sticks to a Soothing Mist/ eveloping mist rotation of gameplay. Then, yes I could see the players smart heals only being 15 percent of their over all healing. But, if even then because your serpent statue Heals the lowest HP player whenever you soothing mist. I would still think gift of the serpent would be well above 15 percent.

Also, how is ReM not a Smart heal. It jumps to players intelligently deciding who it should jump to next. If you put ReM into the equation I know for a fact that most 95 percent of the fights I'm in ReM is my number one heal.

So, those numbers are so bias that I don't even want to talk about this anymore.

[Deleted]

Those are some very bias numbers. Gift of the serpent along with eminence if the player used a Fistweaving/ lightning weaving style would more than likely be 50 percent of your heals plus. I would have to look at logs and what not to get an exact number. But based on memory of my own actions they well above 50 percent.

So, the numbers are bias because of the fact it depends on the play style of the player. Assuming the player sticks to a Soothing Mist/ eveloping mist rotation of gameplay. Then, yes I could see the players smart heals only being 15 percent of their over all healing. But, if even then because your serpent statue Heals the lowest HP player whenever you soothing mist. I would still think gift of the serpent would be well above 15 percent.

Also, how is ReM not a Smart heal. It jumps to players intelligently deciding who it should jump to next. If you put ReM into the equation I know for a fact that most 95 percent of the fights I'm in ReM is my number one heal.

So, those numbers are so bias that I don't even want to talk about this anymore.

If I punched the boss once and then went afk 100% of my healing would be Eminence, but that doesn't constitute a typical fight. Though fucking hell, wherever you're finding these logs of people doing more than 50% of their healing as Eminence and not playing like shit I'd love to know. Best I've managed on a favorable fight for Eminence is like 30%.

ReM jumps to the furthest injured person, and has it's healing delivered over 20 seconds. People who are unfamiliar with the spec far too often mistake this for it jumping to the most injured player within x range. I've also seen people extend this logic to Uplift, because since ReM is a 'smart heal' Uplift must be too. Which is fucking laughable.

Also, are you implying that Gift of the Serpent is a smart heal?

[Totaltotemic]

Those are some very bias numbers. Gift of the serpent along with eminence if the player used a Fistweaving/ lightning weaving style would more than likely be 50 percent of your heals plus. I would have to look at logs and what not to get an exact number. But based on memory of my own actions they well above 50 percent.

So, the numbers are bias because of the fact it depends on the play style of the player. Assuming the player sticks to a Soothing Mist/ eveloping mist rotation of gameplay. Then, yes I could see the players smart heals only being 15 percent of their over all healing. But, if even then because your serpent statue Heals the lowest HP player whenever you soothing mist. I would still think gift of the serpent would be well above 15 percent.

Also, how is ReM not a Smart heal. It jumps to players intelligently deciding who it should jump to next. If you put ReM into the equation I know for a fact that most 95 percent of the fights I'm in ReM is my number one heal.

So, those numbers are so bias that I don't even want to talk about this anymore.

This is what happens when you don't ever actually look at logs and decide to make up numbers and mechanics. Eminence at 50% of healing and Statue Soothing at 15%... maybe if you're running a 5 man.

[Smurfz]

The whole original argument was made up of made up numbers. So, I fight fire with fire.

Also, you are going to need to more definitive of what is a "smart heal". I mean. I am assuming anything that isn't a direct action of the player is a smart heal. Meaning anything that is done of the spells own accord. That is how I am defining a smart heal. So, any spell that comes off of the statue is not under the control of the player. So yes under my definition any healing done by my the Jade serpent statue is a smart heal. Imo.

Rem acts in the same way. The player only controls the original target of ReM and then it jumps to other players. Uplift is a direct action of the player so it is not a smart heal.

But, I think you would need to define your opinion of a smart heal. because, if I'm interrupting your responses correctly. You are just going to manipulate everything into not being a smart heal. I could do the same with every single class in the game.

But, yea all of these numbers are BS numbers not myself nor the antagonist of the last 4 posts have given any valid logs or any valid research or support on any of these numbers. So, yea its all BS at this point

- - - Updated - - -

Well here. I did this. I looked at the logs posted by Dennix. I assume he doesn't mind because he posted them.



http://worldoflogs.com/reports/r4xzv...e=13760#Dennix


I will assume that Eminence and Eminence ( statue ) are considered smart healing. Because, they heal with out any direction from the player. With just those 2 spells it constitutes 23 percent of his healing. Well above 15 percent and with only 2 spells.

If ReM is considered a Smart heal that number jumps to 40 ~ and that is with just 3 spells. If you feel like it you can add it all up for all the other spells that actually act with out any action by the player. Trinket procs, Cloak Procs, Ect. Obviously some of these can not be considered smart heals because they heal with out any direction. But, they do act with out any direct action from the player.

I would show some of my logs. but I don't keep any. I pug most groups I play in and don't find it necessary to log a Pug group. It's more a personal choice I don't like dealing with Guild politics. Guild politics robs me of all ambition in this game. So, I just pug and thus have no logs.

[Totaltotemic]

If ReM is considered a Smart heal that number jumps to 40 ~ and that is with just 3 spells.

You keep using that word.. I don't think it means what you think it means. Blizzard doesn't either, or the entire rest of the World of Warcraft playerbase. A smart heal is heal that targets the lowest-health raid member, ReM does not do this. Granted, I wouldn't expect someone that doesn't raid to understand how the game works at a mechanical level that requires specific terminology to describe since you don't do anything that requires that level of knowledge.

Of course, if you were familiar with raiding or even this forum you'd know that Dennix's claim to fame is that he is an expert lightning-weaver that does everything he can to make it viable, but by no means is channeling CJL on a fight with a 25% damage buff considered "normal" for a Mistweaver.

[Smurfz]

You keep using that word..

I also use words like "if" and "considered"

A smart heal is heal that targets the lowest-health raid member

Well, if that is the definition of a smart heal than I would conclude that Mistweavers have a number of smart "enough" heals. Their heals graduated high school at a C average but didn't go into college.

Of course, if you were familiar with raiding or even this forum you'd know that Dennix's claim to fame is that he is an expert lightning-weaver that does everything he can to make it viable, but by no means is channeling CJL on a fight with a 25% damage buff considered "normal" for a Mistweaver.

This statement also reinforces my original statement that the numbers were biased because it is dependent on the playstyle of the player. If someone wanted to they could adjust their playstyle to only use spells that would be considered a Smartheal and that would jack the numbers in a completely different direction. They could also play in tangent and use all spells that ARE NOT a smart heal and exclude all smart heals from their game play and that would Jack the numbers in a completely different direction.

In the spirit of the OP I would think that Dennix's logs work well for this thread.