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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    Skill is hardly ever equal in regards to pugs.
    A more valuable question would be, who does more dps, A bad ret with 560 ilvl or a Very skilled ret with 535 ilvl.

    I've seen a 535 ret out damage a 560 ret but it was probably because he had the Heroic Heirloom weapon and was more adept to the Ret paladin skill set.
    But the thing is, unless they have a heroic heirloom(and even with that they could just have been boosted), there really isn't any way to tell if they're more skilled than your average PuG player. I've out damaged lots of better geared people of my spec, but there is no way a raidleader could've known that would happen.
    Last edited by Drathos; 2014-04-30 at 06:01 AM.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Drathos View Post
    But the thing is, unless they have a heroic heirloom(and even with that they could just have been boosted), there really isn't any way to tell if they're more skilled than your average PuG player. I've out damaged lots of better geared people of my spec, but there is no way a raidleader could've known that would happen.
    Your raidleader must do the research better. Simple as that(and yes, i know it takes time to write back and forth, to make sure that the DPS is reliable, not only because of iLvl). But he cannot be the successful leader, if he forms PuG's based on iLvl as the only criteria. It WILL fail.

    It has been proven in many areas(that includes sport, buisness etc.). There is a big difference between paper statistics and workload. And this is why, we have the difference between the average and top tier guilds. It all about, what people will focus on and what kind of approach they take.

    Who wants to play with a group, with a raidleader who randomly invites people, wiping, kicking and so on in frustration? I rather make my own group and if it fails, then people must blame me(afterall it is my responsibility, i gave the invitation).

    And this is why im telling people like OP and other tryhards, that leaders who are checking iLvls out, are simple bad. They suck.
    Last edited by Strifeload; 2014-04-30 at 11:03 AM.

  3. #343
    Warchief 1ns's Avatar
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    Yeah it is stupid. Its been like this since the gs times in mid wotlk though.
    There is no such thing as "ability bloat" just l2fp.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    Your raidleader must do the research better. Simple as that(and yes, i know it takes time to write back and forth, to make sure that the DPS is reliable, not only because of iLvl). But he cannot be the successful leader, if he forms PuG's based on iLvl as the only criteria. It WILL fail.

    It has been proven in many areas(that includes sport, buisness etc.). There is a big difference between paper statistics and workload. And this is why, we have the difference between the average and top tier guilds. It all about, what people will focus on and what kind of approach they take.

    Who wants to play with a group, with a raidleader who randomly invites people, wiping, kicking and so on in frustration? I rather make my own group and if it fails, then people must blame me(afterall it is my responsibility, i gave the invitation).

    And this is why im telling people like OP and other tryhards, that leaders who are checking iLvls out, are simple bad. They suck.
    PuGs are NOT guilds. And you're being unreasonable in terms of what you expect from a PuG raidleader. A PuG(Pickup group, so a group of random people who decide to try doing a raid together) leader does NOT have the time to do the kind of research you expect. There's a reason guild applications take time to review.
    In a guild, YES, there should be research/an interview, but a PuG is completely different.
    And no, you can't tell if a DPS is reliable just from talking to them. Anybody can learn the tactics or whatever by heart, but still fail at executing them.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Drathos View Post
    PuGs are NOT guilds. And you're being unreasonable in terms of what you expect from a PuG raidleader. A PuG(Pickup group, so a group of random people who decide to try doing a raid together) leader does NOT have the time to do the kind of research you expect. There's a reason guild applications take time to review.
    In a guild, YES, there should be research/an interview, but a PuG is completely different.
    And no, you can't tell if a DPS is reliable just from talking to them. Anybody can learn the tactics or whatever by heart, but still fail at executing them.
    Time? Your raidleader takes his time to wipe, kick, replace people, waste energy in frustration, but wont take his time to do short interview and correct research? I say, there shouldnt be any difference between guild and PuG runs(atleast raidleaders should act like that).

    PuG runs are doomed then, let us agree on that. Afterall, its completely fine to form PuG's randomly(just like playing lottery)and work it out that way, until everything is in order.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    Time? Your raidleader takes his time to wipe, kick, replace people, waste energy in frustration, but wont take his time to do short interview and correct research? I say, there shouldnt be any difference between guild and PuG runs.

    PuG runs are doomed then, let us agree on that. Afterall, its completely fine to form PuG's randomly(just like playing lottery).
    If there was no difference, they wouldn't need different names. PuG runs have always been like playing the lottery in terms of success. And no, PuG leaders don't take their time to wipe, kick and replace people, because the majority of PuGs disband after a couple of wipes. And YES, it is completely fine to form PuGs randomly. That's what PuGs ARE.
    There IS a difference between guilds and PuGs, that will ALWAYS be there, because PuGs don't have to give a shit about the others, as they might very well never meet them again, while in guilds, you generally stick together for ages.
    Last edited by Drathos; 2014-04-30 at 11:42 AM.

  7. #347
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    my 553 mage cant get into to barely any SoO runs even though i have 8/14H xp and hes 11/14N

  8. #348
    I had 545 item level people pulling 120k DPS on Garrosh.. Because of those people pug leaders want over-the-top item level as well as achievement. Nobody wants to get stuck on the boss they already defeated just cause few people can't pull out their weight.
    So ye - for pugs I always demand 550+ item level. Guildes? We've taken guildes with 500ilv on that fight and it was all right...
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    ^------True story!!

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Drathos View Post
    If there was no difference, they wouldn't need different names. PuG runs have always been like playing the lottery in terms of success. And no, PuG leaders don't take their time to wipe, kick and replace people, because the majority of PuGs disband after a couple of wipes. And YES, it is completely fine to form PuGs randomly. That's what PuGs ARE.
    There IS a difference between guilds and PuGs, that will ALWAYS be there, because PuGs don't have to give a shit about the others, as they might very well never meet them again, while in guilds, you generally stick together for ages.
    Good post, thanks.

    I see now where we are going. And i didnt exactly know, how PuG's work(im not very experienced).

    OP: find a progressive guild. I don't belive PuG is for everyone.

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    Im sorry, it was nothing personal. Im just talking about the issues, both you and I face.

    Im more than dedicated to do the best i can, but no one gives me the fucking chance(just like the OP). Meanwhile, raidleaders went chat spam, just to check iLvls and fail in raid(just because they focus on iLvl).

    It is not about iLvl, but better organization. That is what im talking about.
    As written before if you are on EU and you are on alliance you can join these raids:

    Quote Originally Posted by Drathos View Post
    Alliance run for SoO flex 1+2, 520 ilevel requirement
    Trusmoov does those runs every week, and I *believe* Fistsneezer is supposed to be doing a Horde equivalent on another day.

    Horde SoO normal, leader has decent reputation, 530 ilevel requirement
    So there are certainly runs for lesser geared people, and Kalepp already plugged his(very good) SoO25N runs on Alliance with a 540 ilevel requirement.
    OpenRaid chat probably has higher requirements than pre-planned runs.

    I've never tried oqueue, because I hated the UI and the 9001 useless things it does beyond the matchmaking thing, so I have no idea how well that works.
    I can highly vote on Kalepp's Raids :P
    Last edited by chaosjones; 2014-04-30 at 12:26 PM.

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  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    I see now where we are going. And i didnt exactly know, how PuG's work(im not very experienced).
    If you are not very experienced (that was shown in your posts) why you give other people advice how to make pugs?

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Netzach View Post
    If you are not very experienced (that was shown in your posts) why you give other people advice how to make pugs?
    I dont give advice on PuG(because i dont have the experience). But I criticize the approach raidleaders take, when they form PuG. And i know, how to spot the bad raidleader and the good raidleader and I know thier responsability. That is enough for me.

    I didnt know that it was "okay" to wipe 10-20 times(with a group of 550+ people, way above the required iLvl average), replace people, whine and QQ, rinse and repeat, until everything is in order. It must be great.
    Last edited by Strifeload; 2014-04-30 at 12:49 PM.

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    I dont give advice on PuG(because i dont have the experience). But I criticize the approach raidleaders take, when they form PuG. And i know, how to spot the bad raidleader and the good raidleader and I know thier responsability. That is enough for me.

    I didnt know that it was "okay" to wipe 10-20 times(with a group of 550+ people, way above the required iLvl average), replace people, whine and QQ, rinse and repeat, until everything is in order. It must be great.
    How can you criticize something you have no experience in ? If you dont know how it works, how can you say its wrong ?
    You clearly dont pug at all and as such can't really comment on what approach is good or bad, you simply dont know.
    Making assumptions based on guesses is never a good outcome.

    How do you think guild group progresses content ? Do you think they magically dont wipe aobve a certain ilvl ? Get real kiddo.

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    I dont give advice on PuG(because i dont have the experience). But I criticize the approach raidleaders take, when they form PuG. And i know, how to spot the bad raidleader and the good raidleader and I know thier responsability. That is enough for me.

    I didnt know that it was "okay" to wipe 10-20 times(with a group of 550+ people, way above the required iLvl average), replace people, whine and QQ, rinse and repeat, until everything is in order. It must be great.
    Don't need to be cocky about it. pug groups from trade usually ends up that way.
    Join openraid. yes wipes happen there unless you are joining a hardcore raid. but with your attitude i doubt you would have a chance of joining them.

    Be civil and maybe someone might want to take you along.

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  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    How can you criticize something you have no experience in ? If you dont know how it works, how can you say its wrong ?
    You clearly dont pug at all and as such can't really comment on what approach is good or bad, you simply dont know.
    Making assumptions based on guesses is never a good outcome.

    How do you think guild group progresses content ? Do you think they magically dont wipe aobve a certain ilvl ? Get real kiddo.
    Have you heard of people killing Gary 5-man on normal(10man)?

    How can 25 people, way above the iLvl threshold fail on normal mode and struggle? And how can that be "alright"?

    So you tell me, why people fails? I blame the raidleader(because of the silly approach).
    Last edited by Strifeload; 2014-04-30 at 12:57 PM.

  16. #356
    Epic! chaosjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    Have you heard of people killing Gary 5-man on normal(10man)?

    How can 25 people, way above the iLvl threshold fail on normal mode and struggle? And how can that be "alright"?

    So you tell me, why people fails? I blame the raidleader(because of the silly approach).
    There is a difference between average raiders and some of the best raiders in the world in best in slot gear averaging around 578 ilvl

    Get real matey.

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  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    Have you heard of people killing Gary 5 man on normal?

    How can 25 people, way above the iLvl threshold fail on normal mode and struggle?

    So you tell me, why people fails? I blame the raidleader(because of the silly approach).
    How many videos can you find of 5 man gary ? 1 ?
    Do they happen to have farmed 25man bis geared and be among the best players in the world ?
    How can you even compare the best players in the world, to a random group that often lacks basics tools such a voice communication ?

    People can fail cause ilvl does not equal skill and majority of your average flex/normal raider isn't very skilled, higher ilvl will insure a higher ceiling of dps, regardless of what that roof is, in a vaccum where skill does not exist, more ilvl equals more dps. Its really that simple.

    You also seem to live in some sort of bubble where wipes doesn't happen, top world guilds spends hundreds of wipes per boss during progression, are they also just bad ?

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by chaosjones View Post
    There is a difference between average raiders and some of the best raiders in the world in best in slot gear averaging around 578 ilvl

    Get real matey.
    And im telling, when you form PuG, you can take your time and invite people with skills, rather than iLvl. That's my critique.

    In my world, it is not fine to fail, when i form people with 560, just to suck on normal mode. And now i know, that PuG is not for me.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    Have you heard of people killing Gary 5-man on normal(10man)?

    How can 25 people, way above the iLvl threshold fail on normal mode and struggle? And how can that be "alright"?

    So you tell me, why people fails? I blame the raidleader(because of the silly approach).
    We've said this MANY times. The 5man kill was by some of the best players in the world, WAY overgearing the encounter(especially with how scaling is at the moment, that's an enormous difference). And I'm not sure why you're comparing doing the 10man version of Garrosh with 5 people to doing the 25man version with 25.
    People fail because they suck, easy as that.

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    And im telling, when you form PuG, you can take your time and invite people with skills, rather than iLvl. That's my critique.

    In my world, it is not fine to fail, when i form people with 560, just to suck on normal mode. And now i know, that PuG is not for me.
    Just out of curiosity, when you formed that 560 ilvl group that failed, why didn't you just invite people with lower ilvl that you know had this skill your talking about, that you so clearly can tell in random people ?

    If you had invited people with 540 ilvl cause you thought they had skill, it would have been even worse, but i thought you could tell skill in random people, thats what you've been saying for 2 pages, not so easy huh ?
    Last edited by santa666; 2014-04-30 at 01:08 PM.

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