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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    And im telling, when you form PuG, you can take your time and invite people with skills, rather than iLvl. That's my critique.

    In my world, it is not fine to fail, when i form people with 560, just to suck on normal mode. And now i know, that PuG is not for me.
    It is not "fine" to fail, but that's just the reality of PuGs. And you can't take your time, because even if you do, people can lie to you.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zxzas View Post
    I'm locked to Paragons, I just want to kill Garrosh. Why isn't 550 ilvl enough? I understand having the legendary cloak is a very healthy dps increase but c'mon. It is manageable without it. I can still do 200k dps without it, oh and I have to link my achievement too? Give me a break. I get you don't want to sit there and wipe x number of times, I just want my kill for the week.

    "LFM N GARROSH KILL 560+ ilvl"
    "LFM N GARROSH KILL PST ACHIEVE 550+ LEGENDARY CLOAK REQUIRED"

    Hey guys, don't quit playing WoW when you are in the middle of your legendary quest line. The end expansion pugs will be a pain in the ass to get into because you *NEED* it.

    *yes I have a guild, we only raid 2 nights a week, 4-5 hours max between the 2 days, killed siegecrafter and called it*

    I'M CRY IF I DON'T GET MY WOLF MOUNT.

    As said so many times before, MAKE. YOUR. OWN. GROUP...........problem solved.
    We didn't wipe 100 times. We just found 100 ways how not to down a boss.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    How many videos can you find of 5 man gary ? 1 ?
    Do they happen to have farmed 25man bis geared and be among the best players in the world ?
    How can you even compare the best players in the world, to a random group that often lacks basics tools such a voice communication ?

    People can fail cause ilvl does not equal skill and majority of your average flex/normal raider isn't very skilled, higher ilvl will insure a higher ceiling of dps, regardless of what that roof is, in a vaccum where skill does not exist, more ilvl equals more dps. Its really that simple.

    You also seem to live in some sort of bubble where wipes doesn't happen, top world guilds spends hundreds of wipes per boss during progression, are they also just bad ?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6fTg4bGCYE

    According to the interview, they have wiped around 20 times. They probably had the best items, but it CANNOT compensate for 25 averagely geared people. It is not logical.

    I mean, why would i take the raidleaders serious, when they ask in tradechat for 550 people and full group(sometimes to FLEX mode), when 5 good players gets the job done?
    Last edited by Strifeload; 2014-04-30 at 01:08 PM.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6fTg4bGCYE

    According to the interview, they have wiped around 20 times. The probably had the best items, but it CANNOT compensate for 25 averagely geared people.

    I mean, why would i take the raidleaders serious, when they ask in tradechat for 550 people and full group(sometimes to FLEX mode), when 5 good players gets the job done?
    Again, those 5 good players also had some of the best gear available in the game, which is way stronger than 550 ilevel gear. And again.... they weren't compensating for 20 other people, they were compensating for 5.

    EDIT: By "way stronger" I mean to the tune of twice as much DPS from ~550 with no cloak and meta to 575 with cloak and meta.
    Last edited by Drathos; 2014-04-30 at 01:11 PM.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Zxzas View Post
    Who doesn't use OpenRaid? And I'm not making my own group because I'm a follower, not a leader.
    There you go. You can't even lead this thread, follower. You can't complain if you can't lead. Your ideas are useless.
    “The only real failure in life is not to be true to the best one knows.”- Buddha

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Drathos View Post
    Again, those 5 good players also had some of the best gear available in the game, which is way stronger than 550 ilevel gear. And again.... they weren't compensating for 20 other people, they were compensating for 5.
    Well, someday, before the next expansion, people will down him 10-15 man on 25mode. It doesnt matter, it just proves my thinking.

  7. #367
    Agree with Drathos. And even with a parse it is hard to evaluate someone on garrosh.

    jugement based on ilvl ?
    -> a guy with high ilvl might not follow strat, not do big dps
    -> a guy with low ilvl for the context might do enough dps (and 220k dps ST on garrosh is far enough to kill him quickly)

    jugement based on xp ? (from wow armory)
    -> a guys with one or two down might have been PL, and could mess up. The more down the better, but you filter out a lot of guys with this selection.
    -> in particular you might filter out a guy which have tried a lot of time on him, that perfectly know his role

    jugement based on dps ? (from epeenbot for example)
    -> a guy with high dps (350k+) might have more than half his damage on P1 adds, so it means he had only 175k effective dps. I've witnessed that several times. He might also not switch to MC, which is even worse.
    -> you won't know for a guys with no down of garrosh or no parse

    jugement based on MC cut ? (require WoL analysis)
    -> if you are in a great group, with lot of dps, you will need a grant total of 2 counterspells (for the empowered MC in phase 3). 8 or 9 guys of the roster won't have to counterspell.

    From my experience of garrosh in random pugs i joined (~8 down, countless failed groups), you kill it when the group is 565+. Even a group of 560 guys do not work most of the time. Was it because the raidleader was lenient and invited only based on ilvl ? maybe. Was it because these day everybody is in a hurry, and leave after one wipe (or even before the wipe) ? maybe.
    Leaving a pug after 3-4 wipes is perfectly acceptable (from my PoV) when you see the raidleader not doing his role (analyzing what's happening, explaining the issues, removing underperforming dudes, etc..), but after one wipe, before even seeing the RL reaction, it is a bit a waste of everyone's time.

    So my conclusion :
    Do the rest of the instance until you are more geared (that's still 13 bosses). At 550 ilvl, there a lot of upgrades available on those. One day you'll reach a ilvl high enough to get in good pug groups
    Last edited by CaML; 2014-04-30 at 01:17 PM.

  8. #368
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    misread what was written nvm
    Last edited by chaosjones; 2014-04-30 at 01:20 PM.

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  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by CaML View Post
    Agree with Drathos. And even with a parse it is hard to evaluate someone on garrosh.

    jugement based on ilvl ?
    -> a guy with high ilvl might not follow strat, not do big dps
    -> a guy with low ilvl for the context might do enough dps (and 220k dps ST on garrosh is far enough to kill him quickly)

    jugement based on xp ? (from wow armory)
    -> a guys with one or two down might have been PL, and could mess up. The more down the better, but you filter out a lot of guys with this selection.
    -> in particular you might filter out a guy which have tried a lot of time on him, that perfectly know his role

    jugement based on dps ? (from epeenbot for example)
    -> a guy with high dps (350k+) might have more than half his damage on P1 adds, so it means he had only 175k effective dps. I've witnessed that several times. He might also not switch to MC, which is even worse.
    -> you won't know for a guys with no down of garrosh or no parse

    jugement based on MC cut ? (require WoL analysis)
    -> if you are in a great group, with lot of dps, you will need a grant total of 2 counterspells (for the empowered MC in phase 3). 8 or 9 guys of the roster won't have to counterspell.

    From my experience of garrosh in random pugs i joined (~8 down, countless failed groups), you kill it when the group is 565+. Even a group of 560 guys do not work most of the time. Was it because the raidleader was lenient and invited only based on ilvl ? maybe. Was it because these day everybody is in a hurry, and leave after one wipe (or even before the wipe) ? maybe.
    Leaving a pug after 3-4 wipes is perfectly acceptable (from my PoV) when you see the raidleader not doing his role (analyzing what's happening, explaining the issues, removing underperforming dudes, etc..), but after one wipe, before even seeing the RL reaction, it is a bit a waste of everyone's time.
    Thanks. And i was thinking exactly about, why and how people are failing so much. The first boss in SoO is freaking tuned for iLvl520 people!

    I still blame the raidleaders(obviously iLvl alone is NOT enough).
    Last edited by Strifeload; 2014-04-30 at 01:22 PM.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, when you formed that 560 ilvl group that failed, why didn't you just invite people with lower ilvl that you know had this skill your talking about, that you so clearly can tell in random people ?

    If you had invited people with 540 ilvl cause you thought they had skill, it would have been even worse, but i thought you could tell skill in random people, thats what you've been saying for 2 pages, not so easy huh ?
    Gear more or less correlates to skill and experience. A 580 player is skilled 99% of the time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    Thanks. And i was thinking exactly about, why and how people are failing so much. The first boss in SoO is freaking tuned for iLvl520 people!

    I still blame the raidleaders(obviously iLvl alone is NOT enough).
    People in 520 at the start of the patch were normal mode raiders. Normal mode raiders are 565-ish right now. Those sitting around 520 currently represent a different skill skill demographic than before, closer to LFR heroes. It was 520 ilvl with normal mode skill level. Believe it or not, protectors is too hard for some groups.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Gear more or less correlates to skill and experience. A 580 player is skilled 99% of the time.

    - - - Updated - - -



    People in 520 at the start of the patch were normal mode raiders. Normal mode raiders are 565-ish right now. Those sitting around 520 currently represent a different skill skill demographic than before, closer to LFR heroes. It was 520 ilvl with normal mode skill level. Believe it or not, protectors is too hard for some groups.
    guys in 580 are skilled, but you can't say for a guy in 520. What if the 520 is a reroll of the 580 ? Is he suddently a total noob ?
    Last edited by CaML; 2014-04-30 at 02:03 PM.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Welcome to people Hell, I distinctly recall pugs in Wrath demanding GS so high that you probably needed nothing from the raid to begin with.

    The real humor starts when the person setting up the raid doesn't even meet his / her own requirements. "I want a smooth run" and "I want to be carried" are, at times, interchangable.
    Wooow, I forgot all about that particular turn of phrase. Gear score. The nostalgia is too powerful in this comment, all I see is trade awash with minimum requirements.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    It takes more than 2 months to get the cloak, so what ? If you can't get in a heroic raiding guild without the cloak, you or the guild you are trying to join probably aren't any good to begin with.
    I guess you dont heroic raid. Because at that point skill is pretty much the same. now.

    two deathknights, one has the cape. one doesn't.

    Who do you take? lemme know.

    Oh, and no raider should even entertain the idea that a free legendary is a good idea, even blizzard agrees it was a bad idea.

    All raiders agree we shouldnt have to do LFR. but when the cloak comes around. then we all turn into elitist jerks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    You can't be 530 after weeks of gearing via LFR/Timeless/crafting/valor/Flex. It's just not possible. Timeless burden gear is 543 when upgraded. You would easily have eight or ten burden pieces in 8 weeks if this is your only character and all you are doing is the weekly quests and the shaohao daily once or twice a week and just fiddling around a little. It's one thing to try to grind out a half dozen burdens in one week but if you are talking about the two+ months it normally takes to get a cape then they do start to pile up.

    I don't know what you're doing.

    plus also not subject to RNG:
    561 crafted belt
    561 crafted pants
    various 530 valor pieces
    various 522 honor pieces
    the honor peices are nice if you dont have dipshits in the group who think pvp gear isnt exactly the same as pve gear, stat-wise.

    unless you're a tank

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandapuncher View Post
    the honor peices are nice if you dont have dipshits in the group who think pvp gear isnt exactly the same as pve gear, stat-wise.

    unless you're a tank
    Depends on the tank. Prot pala goes haste then mastery. which you can easily get on pvp gear XD

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  15. #375
    I was in a similar situation initially. I quit playing when ToT came out, regeared my monk, then leveled my Druid to 90 to play as Resto instead. Unfortunately, this meant my gear level was quite low. Now, I've played Druid for quite a few expansions, so I was confident in my ability to quickly pick up the class and heal admirably. I began gearing it on the side while raiding on my Brewmaster monk. Finally after some drastic roster changes in my first guild, I was able to convince my raid leader to bring my Druid to raid with our 11/14 N Mode guild. I was at an item level of 525 at that point. I pulled admirable healing (I have logs, if anyone's curious as to what I was doing to pull that kind of healing) and I quickly geared running these normal modes. However, due to some conflict, I left my guild at ilevel 538. I found a guild looking for a healer desperately for it's Heroic runs, and lied about my item level, saying I was 540. I'll pause for a second to say I have a pretty impressive pedigree of raiding experience, having had guilds like Blood Legion, Encore, and Raiding Rainbows under my name. This was during Cataclysm and Wrath however. But, due to this list of guilds, it was enough to get a trial for a heroic guild at ilevel 538. RNGesus helped me out and tossed me quite a few bones that raid, gearing me in several pieces of heroic gear and a piece of heroic warforged gear in my first two weeks of raiding. By my third week, my item level had jumped nearly 20. Despite that, I'm still only 553. My healing, however, is incredibly competitive compared to the 560+ healers of the team.

    It all comes down to your ability to perform, to show you can perform, and to be confident in your ability. I was scared shitless of going into a heroic raid at item level 538 and blowing my only shot at a trial. But multiple comments were made about my ability to react quickly to multiple situations, and execute boss mechanics consistently without failure. My few deaths were attributed to a small health pool (~200k behind the other healers.) The take-away from this entire thing should be that you should be confident in your raiding ability, and ready to prove it. I've had the luxury of having certain guilds proving I've healed on the top end, but even without this, you should be able to find a break sometime.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Exinium View Post
    I was in a similar situation initially. I quit playing when ToT came out, regeared my monk, then leveled my Druid to 90 to play as Resto instead. Unfortunately, this meant my gear level was quite low. Now, I've played Druid for quite a few expansions, so I was confident in my ability to quickly pick up the class and heal admirably. I began gearing it on the side while raiding on my Brewmaster monk. Finally after some drastic roster changes in my first guild, I was able to convince my raid leader to bring my Druid to raid with our 11/14 N Mode guild. I was at an item level of 525 at that point. I pulled admirable healing (I have logs, if anyone's curious as to what I was doing to pull that kind of healing) and I quickly geared running these normal modes. However, due to some conflict, I left my guild at ilevel 538. I found a guild looking for a healer desperately for it's Heroic runs, and lied about my item level, saying I was 540. I'll pause for a second to say I have a pretty impressive pedigree of raiding experience, having had guilds like Blood Legion, Encore, and Raiding Rainbows under my name. This was during Cataclysm and Wrath however. But, due to this list of guilds, it was enough to get a trial for a heroic guild at ilevel 538. RNGesus helped me out and tossed me quite a few bones that raid, gearing me in several pieces of heroic gear and a piece of heroic warforged gear in my first two weeks of raiding. By my third week, my item level had jumped nearly 20. Despite that, I'm still only 553. My healing, however, is incredibly competitive compared to the 560+ healers of the team.

    It all comes down to your ability to perform, to show you can perform, and to be confident in your ability. I was scared shitless of going into a heroic raid at item level 538 and blowing my only shot at a trial. But multiple comments were made about my ability to react quickly to multiple situations, and execute boss mechanics consistently without failure. My few deaths were attributed to a small health pool (~200k behind the other healers.) The take-away from this entire thing should be that you should be confident in your raiding ability, and ready to prove it. I've had the luxury of having certain guilds proving I've healed on the top end, but even without this, you should be able to find a break sometime.
    Not to be snarky, but you're saying the path is easy if you lie about your gear, have well-known names to drop in an app, and guild-hop to get geared?

    How about the rest of us that were in decent US top 50/100 guilds but which weren't well known enough to name-drop, aren't willing to tell stories about our gear, and feel like joining a guild is a commitment, not just a place to grab gear?

  17. #377
    The real kicker is being 1 ilevel lower than the requirement and you have beaten that boss before, are a very good raider, have excellent raid awareness and still can't get the group that can roll the boss over.

    That and the last time I joined a pug group that did one shot the boss the raid leader kicked everyone and ninja'd the loot, which according to Blizzard he can do because he never promised to dispense loot in any way and he can dispense it any way he or she chooses.

  18. #378
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    Seems like a lot of this frustration comes from OQ. People need to suggest the ability to set a comment when you join a wait list for a group. If someone said they did 200k dps and were 11/14H xp then I'd easily take them over someone 10 ilvls higher. Of course they could lie, but I doubt it'd be a huge problem considering how fast you'd get booted after the first pull. I made a garrosh pug last week and tried to look up the people I was inviting on raidbots' epeenbot while only low ilvl people were in queue. Sadly I only found logs for 1 person and they were terrible. There just isn't a way to judge people xserver most of the time, and that sucks. Having an in game log record/ranking system like logging sites would be nice for reasons like this. I can see a lot bad things that might come with it though, so I won't try to push that too much.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Not to be snarky, but you're saying the path is easy if you lie about your gear, have well-known names to drop in an app, and guild-hop to get geared?

    How about the rest of us that were in decent US top 50/100 guilds but which weren't well known enough to name-drop, aren't willing to tell stories about our gear, and feel like joining a guild is a commitment, not just a place to grab gear?
    If you're in a US top 50/100 then you'll likely have logs. I fudged two gear levels so I wouldn't be in the 530's, and I would do it over and over again, because I'm confident in my ability to play my class. (Like I said.) I'm eternally thankful for the experience all of the guilds have given me, but in an effort to progress, guilds will probably need to be used as a launching point into other guilds. It was very much like this on Illidan. There were certain "farm" guilds whom weren't able to progress very far, but produced some exceptionally geared raiders for top tier guilds.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Masterik View Post
    Try to find a raid for this week in openraid. They will take you with that ilvl easily. Protip, try to work in your heal spec if your class can heal, healers can find raids like x1000 faster than a dps.
    Openraid's gotten really competitive lately though. Ever since normal opened up, if you're on a roster with 558 ilvl you're probably at the bottom of the barrel. Every SoO I sign up for has easily enough 560+'s to fill the raid and then some, and some formerly casual RLs have gotten a little snobby now that they can pick and choose from among 14/14 normal and heroic raiders (can't really blame them, but it's annoying for those of us with good track records to get nudged out by a single damn number). And there's a lot of runs- from what I've seen, the majority- that are 14/14 normal required.

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