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  1. #21
    galakras bow is better :<

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    galakras bow is better :<
    It's not 10char.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    It's not 10char.
    looking!

    huehue

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    looking!

    huehue
    I can't imagine any gearset where Galakras bow beats Protectors xbow, though. 1.9k-ish haste beats 1.4k haste, and Hit as the second stat is never a bad thing unless you're overcapping, it's just flexibility.

    That said, in "ideal" gearsets in theoretical situations, the ranged weapons aaaare.. Basically within margin of error? https://www.dropbox.com/s/dqpjyofji0...Comparison.rar

    Results there, they're pretty guideline-ish, though, and the lower-haste choices only sim ~500 DPS higher because they hit the haste breakpoint in a much better fashion (while Protectors xbow overshoots it).

  5. #25
    i feel its far too easy to overshoot hit though especially with the BiS belt being from spoils and boots from nazgrim, both harder bosses in the tier and not everyone has reached that yet.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    i feel its far too easy to overshoot hit though especially with the BiS belt being from spoils and boots from nazgrim, both harder bosses in the tier and not everyone has reached that yet.
    You can't pin stuff down on two items though because the whole gearset has a say in how efficiently you can lay out your stats (a balance of as-many-stats-as-possible and high-haste).

    And while I get your point, you can't really say "well this item is BiS/better", but when when I prove something else is BiS through some data/mostly a little brainstorming, and then say that it's not BiS because a lot of people might not be able to get ahold of it. ;p It's still "BiS".

    Like, we could make BiS lists for 4/14 HC players, 5/14 HC players, etc, but that's silly. ;P I get your thought process though, but the definition of BiS is well.. BiS. Absolute BiS. There's pre-raid BiS and whatnot, sure, but not (sensible) BiS lists for each level of progression through the instance.

  7. #27
    As BM, any piece with high haste is a gain, provided u have 4P covered already. and yes Protector's xbow is the best wepaon u can find, considering the about 2k haste it grants u. Ah, i remember sometimes ago, someone dismissing my statement that for BM protectors Xbow was best. the counter argument was Korkron hand cannon, because of "unique distribution of stats" on it.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by anjan011 View Post
    As BM, any piece with high haste is a gain, provided u have 4P covered already. and yes Protector's xbow is the best wepaon u can find, considering the about 2k haste it grants u. Ah, i remember sometimes ago, someone dismissing my statement that for BM protectors Xbow was best. the counter argument was Korkron hand cannon, because of "unique distribution of stats" on it.
    Well, you didn't really base that on actual knowledge as much as you based it on "well this has more haste than the others". ;P There were plenty good reasons to think that the Hand Cannon was better, and theoretically, they are equal.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    Well, you didn't really base that on actual knowledge as much as you based it on "well this has more haste than the others". ;P There were plenty good reasons to think that the Hand Cannon was better, and theoretically, they are equal.
    Sometimes u know, u go with the flow without crunching the maths :P as yes, i did present my case. as BM, ur pet does more damage, stacking more haste shifts that damage to pet even more. Pet doesn't miss its rotation, so it doesnt take much math to dictate that more pet damage means ur out put will be better as well in essence doesnt that what number crunching says as well?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by anjan011 View Post
    Sometimes u know, u go with the flow without crunching the maths :P as yes, i did present my case. as BM, ur pet does more damage, stacking more haste shifts that damage to pet even more. Pet doesn't miss its rotation, so it doesnt take much math to dictate that more pet damage means ur out put will be better as well in essence doesnt that what number crunching says as well?
    Pet stops its rotation in SoO much more than you do, so that's a pretty weak argument. ;P

    The alternative is Mastery/Crit, btw, both of which increase pet dmg just as Haste does, so the argument falls again. :S All of our stats are better for our pets than ourselves. Crit can be kinda equal because of GoFFT, but that's just our pet getting a damage increase from ourselves critting more. :P

    BTW, even with 17k haste, I still do more damage than my pet pure single-target. It's close, but I still do more.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...e=11&by=source

    If you remove Beast Cleave from the equation (which does not stop any other attacks from happening mind you), I did 2 mill more damage than my pet on this Malk log.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...e=11&by=source - On this Iron Juggernaut log, I did significantly more damage than my pet.
    Last edited by Azortharion; 2014-05-03 at 01:48 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    Pet stops its rotation in SoO much more than you do, so that's a pretty weak argument. ;P

    The alternative is Mastery/Crit, btw, both of which increase pet dmg just as Haste does, so the argument falls again. :S All of our stats are better for our pets than ourselves. Crit can be kinda equal because of GoFFT, but that's just our pet getting a damage increase from ourselves critting more. :P

    BTW, even with 17k haste, I still do more damage than my pet pure single-target. It's close, but I still do more.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...e=11&by=source

    If you remove Beast Cleave from the equation (which does not stop any other attacks from happening mind you), I did 2 mill more damage than my pet on this Malk log.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...e=11&by=source - On this Iron Juggernaut log, I did significantly more damage than my pet.
    u r not counting stampede pets :P technically they r pet as well. i m using the glyph of stampede, so thats why i think the stampede pet damage rolls into my current pet, if my understanding is right. regarding our stats, i guess no combination makes too much of a difference in single target, only a few k may be. so more haste or more crit, all falls into personal preference.

    I myself play with like 400ms latency, so my own reaction is quite a bit slower, that is may be another reason my pet gets more damage than myself.

    P.S. on malkrok ur pet itself did about 5 mil more damage than u and on juggy u did 5mil more than pet. this is quite interesting.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by anjan011 View Post
    u r not counting stampede pets :P technically they r pet as well. i m using the glyph of stampede, so thats why i think the stampede pet damage rolls into my current pet, if my understanding is right. regarding our stats, i guess no combination makes too much of a difference in single target, only a few k may be. so more haste or more crit, all falls into personal preference.

    I myself play with like 400ms latency, so my own reaction is quite a bit slower, that is may be another reason my pet gets more damage than myself.

    P.S. on malkrok ur pet itself did about 5 mil more damage than u and on juggy u did 5mil more than pet. this is quite interesting.
    Haste only increases Stampede damage at certain thresholds. ;P

    On Malkorok the pet only did more than me because it was Beast Cleaving the adds (6 mill beast cleave dmg), if you remove that from the equation I still did more (already said this once in the post ;P).

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    Haste only increases Stampede damage at certain thresholds. ;P

    On Malkorok the pet only did more than me because it was Beast Cleaving the adds (6 mill beast cleave dmg), if you remove that from the equation I still did more (already said this once in the post ;P).
    Aha, gotcha, i was still thinking single target on boss himself

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by anjan011 View Post
    Aha, gotcha, i was still thinking single target on boss himself
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...rce&target=309 - pure malkorok damage - now keep in mind how many Arcane Shots I dropped in order to Multi-Shot to Beast Cleave and you'll find the single-target damage I personally lost is much greater than 1.5 million.

    If that doesn't prove it, then the Juggernaut log will. And this is with extremely high haste (pretty few people with 17k+ I think) and high Mastery, e.g. a pet-based build.

  15. #35
    Field Marshal ReklessJonez's Avatar
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    So real quick Azortharion. Can you take a look at my armory RQ . I have the Reality ripper ring and HM tier shoulders and Heroic unabashed leggings. Should I be using these items and reforging outta the crit or do pieces with Haste Mastery prove better??? A little confused and I would use simcraft but the comp I use isnt mine and I crash sometimes when using SC. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ssjonez/simple

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by ReklessJonez View Post
    So real quick Azortharion. Can you take a look at my armory RQ . I have the Reality ripper ring and HM tier shoulders and Heroic unabashed leggings. Should I be using these items and reforging outta the crit or do pieces with Haste Mastery prove better??? A little confused and I would use simcraft but the comp I use isnt mine and I crash sometimes when using SC. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ssjonez/simple
    Agility always wins. I unfortunately can't tell what you should use if the choice is 2 items of the same iLvl because what items are "best" depends on the rest of your gear setup, and to do that for you I'd need a Best in Bags code I could import into my AskMrRobot premium "Best in Bags" feature to let it see what is the best combination of gear based on my stat weights.

    I replied to your PM with a link where you can send me the relevant stuffs and I'll help you out.

  17. #37
    Bloodsail Admiral Kissthebaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReklessJonez View Post
    So real quick Azortharion. Can you take a look at my armory RQ . I have the Reality ripper ring and HM tier shoulders and Heroic unabashed leggings. Should I be using these items and reforging outta the crit or do pieces with Haste Mastery prove better??? A little confused and I would use simcraft but the comp I use isnt mine and I crash sometimes when using SC. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ssjonez/simple
    Pieces with haste and mastery are going to be better. Unless those pieces are a far higher agility upgrade stay with what u got. It's still agility>Everything else

    kissthebaby#1726

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kissthebaby View Post
    Pieces with haste and mastery are going to be better. Unless those pieces are a far higher agility upgrade stay with what u got. It's still agility>Everything else
    1 Agility is worth a little more than 2 Haste/Mastery/Crit, so the agility gain only has to be extremely small (going from 800 crit to 800 haste is only a scale factor increase of 40 because the difference (with my stat weights) is 0.05 * 800 = 40), and even if one could argue that I put the stats very close in my stat weight setup for AskMrRobot, you could hypothetically put in a difference of .15 (0.45 for haste, 0.3 for crit) and the scale factor point difference would only be 120.

    With Agility's value being 1 (about 11.0 or so in sims, but I normalized them for my stat weight setup), it would only take 40 (if you go with my stat weights) agility to outweigh the difference in secondary stat loss/gain (e.g. it'd be worth going from an item with 800 haste, 800 mastery to 800 crit, 800 mastery if there's an agility bonus of 40, which is the case 100% of the time with any iLvl upgrade, even for low-agi items like necks/rings - and 120 agility (I think this is about the agi bonus you get going from a normal HC to a HCWF ring in SoO?) if one would like to argue my stat weights (and they would be wrong because the difference between haste and crit is much much smaller than what would be 25% in this case).

  19. #39
    Bloodsail Admiral Kissthebaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    1 Agility is worth a little more than 2 Haste/Mastery/Crit, so the agility gain only has to be extremely small (going from 800 crit to 800 haste is only a scale factor increase of 40 because the difference (with my stat weights) is 0.05 * 800 = 40), and even if one could argue that I put the stats very close in my stat weight setup for AskMrRobot, you could hypothetically put in a difference of .15 (0.45 for haste, 0.3 for crit) and the scale factor point difference would only be 120.

    With Agility's value being 1 (about 11.0 or so in sims, but I normalized them for my stat weight setup), it would only take 40 (if you go with my stat weights) agility to outweigh the difference in secondary stat loss/gain (e.g. it'd be worth going from an item with 800 haste, 800 mastery to 800 crit, 800 mastery if there's an agility bonus of 40, which is the case 100% of the time with any iLvl upgrade, even for low-agi items like necks/rings - and 120 agility (I think this is about the agi bonus you get going from a normal HC to a HCWF ring in SoO?) if one would like to argue my stat weights (and they would be wrong because the difference between haste and crit is much much smaller than what would be 25% in this case).
    Yeah that why I said a piece with more agility is going to be better like going from a normal piece to a heroic piece or a heroic piece to a hwf piece. Shouldnt of put "far" more agility just "more" agility. I think you know me by now to know what I meant
    Last edited by Kissthebaby; 2014-05-03 at 10:18 PM.

    kissthebaby#1726

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