The plight of the Romani people of Europe and rising antiziganistic attitudes

[Deleted]

It's not just Spain and Switzerland it's multiple other countries as well.

Europe is a continent with many countries who mostly have similar issues, (in regards to what we're talking about here).

People say it happens all the time in Sweden yet I, as someone who doesn't have a Swedish surname, notice none of it.

[Kalis]

The UK... has racist political parties with some people who get elected into office on those platforms, that is much less an issue in the US...

The UK has (or had) two BNP MEPs. They have zero representation in Westminster, which is the equivalent of Washington DC.

Are you saying there aren't any politicians in the US that have been elected at any political level based on racist views?

[Themius]

The UK has (or had) two BNP MEPs. They have zero representation in Westminster, which is the equivalent of Washington DC.

Are you saying there aren't any politicians in the US that have been elected at any political level based on racist views?

Recently, not that I recall. Generally people like that in politics here are quite... "fool them fool them, don't let them think we're racist or anything" not very overt.

[Kalis]

Recently, not that I recall. Generally people like that in politics here are quite... "fool them fool them, don't let them think we're racist or anything" not very overt.

The BNP doesn't campaign on a policy of overt racism, in fact they try to claim otherwise and openly state they aren't racist. So what exactly is the difference?

[Deleted]

We don't have nationalist parties... nor is nationalism on the rise in the US. We don't have a slew of immigration "problems" and our immigrants are more likely to succeed, (our non-white immigrants). Especially the ones that come from refuge camps and such.

We don't have a huge "Muslim problem", sure the attitude wasn't very favorable after 9/11 but that's since changed. Idk why so many European countries have such an issue with Muslims... it's not like they've suffered a huge terrorist attack that killed thousands lately, but the sentiment grows. When it comes to race, Europe and America have very different history. Europe was pretty racist at some point even when blacks were moving there from America when America was god awful racist; however, we had civil rights movements, and marches to change attitudes throughout the country. Europe doesn't share the same history, Europe didn't exactly institute jim crow laws to force minorities into being considered sub-human and not worthy. Since many countries lack this history they also lack understanding about certain things.

A simple no would have been sufficient. Come back, when you have actual proof, not just your words, but words with credibility or even numbers to back any of your statements.

However, I will agree we do have nationalist parties. However the ones supported to an actual party, do not promote deportation of functional immigrants, removing their rights, treating them differently, they simply want immigration to be less, or at least a timespan for it (right now there is no timespan for it, and that essentially means we will have immigration, until we run out of space). I call that responsible democracy, where everything is questioned and everybody is represented.

We never needed Jim Crows laws, because there never were laws that instigated that different races should have different rights.

Also a lot of european countries don't even have a history of multiculturalism. My own parents spend their youth seeing nothing but caucasian people, I didn't see nothing but caucasian people until 8th grade. We haven't had 300 years to accustom ourselves with the idea of multiculturalism, we barely had a generation to do so.

[Deleted]

A simple no would have been sufficient. Come back, when you have actual proof, not just your words, but words with credibility or even numbers to back any of your statements.

However, I will agree we do have nationalist parties. However the ones supported to an actual party, do not promote deportation of functional immigrants, removing their rights, treating them differently, they simply want immigration to be less, or at least a timespan for it (right now there is no timespan for it, and that essentially means we will have immigration, until we run out of space). I call that responsible democracy, where everything is questioned and everybody is represented.

Lol, we've had our prime minister say it's impossible to reduce the rate of immigration.

[Ghostpanther]

A civil war is not the same thing as a war against a foreign nation, far from it.

Not really. When a soldier takes a oath here, they pledge to defend their country from all enemies, foreign and "domestic". I am sure if you asked a soldier on the battlefield at the time of the Civil War here..." do you feel like you are in a "real" war?"...we both know what his answer would be. I understand there is a difference of course, but it is still a real war. And sometimes the number of deaths which happen in a civil war can far exceed what a war with a foreign nation would. The number of Americans who died in the Civil War here between the States exceeds the number who died in all the other wars the US has fought.

[Kalis]

Europe was pretty racist at some point even when blacks were moving there from America when America was god awful racist; however, we had civil rights movements, and marches to change attitudes throughout the country. Europe doesn't share the same history, Europe didn't exactly institute jim crow laws to force minorities into being considered sub-human and not worthy. Since many countries lack this history they also lack understanding about certain things.

Edit: completely misread the first line.

[nextormento]

Idk why so many European countries have such an issue with Muslims... it's not like they've suffered a huge terrorist attack that killed thousands lately, but the sentiment grows.

While I certainly don't think it's the only reason for increasing xenophobia against Muslims, some European countries have been targeted by Islamic terrorism. Most notably UK (2005 London bombings) and Spain (2004 Madrid train bombings). They both resulted -supposedly- from the support both countries offered to the US during the Irak campaign. Not the same scale, not the same scope, of course; but it's all part of the same conflict.

[Deleted]

Not really. When a soldier takes a oath here, they pledge to defend their country from all enemies, foreign and "domestic". I am sure if you asked a soldier on the battlefield at the time of the Civil War here..." do you feel like you are in a "real" war?"...we both know what his answer would be. I understand there is a difference of course, but it is still a real war. And sometimes the number of deaths which happen in a civil war can far exceed what a war with a foreign nation would. The number of Americans who died in the Civil War here between the States exceeds the number who died in all the other wars the US has fought.

The death count has nothing to do with it, fighting your neighbour is totally different to fighting someone your country has been taught to hate for 1000 years, you don't get over that shit in a generation or two. I grew up hearing how evil the Germans were and the UK still bears scars from the war, every week we are digging up unexploded bombs many of which are still lethal. An American just cannot understand this.

[Ghostpanther]

The death count has nothing to do with it, fighting your neighbour is totally different to fighting someone your country has been taught to hate for 1000 years, you don't get over that shit in a generation or two. I grew up hearing how evil the Germans were and the UK still bears scars from the war, every week we are digging up unexploded bombs many of which are still lethal. An American just cannot understand this.

Lol! Have you ever visited the South here in the US? Who still fly the confederate flag or a version of it? Anyway, the poster who I was responded to had made the statement, the US has not fought a real war. And if you support that statement, then explain to me what a real war is? I mean, you have to be in hatred with that country for a thousand years? I already agree there is a difference.

But the issue was with what constitutes a "real" war. And remember there is still some hatred here of those damn Yankees and from the American Indians, those damn white eyes. :P And death's do have a lot to do with how a war is remembered. One reason WW2 is the greatest war ever on the planet earth is a direct result of the number of death's from that war. Estimates I have read is about 50 million. No other war in history can even come close to that number.

[Deleted]

Lol! Have you ever visited the South here in the US? Who still fly the confederate flag or a version of it? Anyway, the poster who I was responded to had made the statement, the US has not fought a real war. And if you support that statement, then explain to me what a real war is? I mean, you have to be in hatred with that country for a thousand years? I already agree there is a difference.

But the issue was with what constitutes a "real" war. And remember there is still some hatred here of those damn Yankees and from the American Indians, those damn white eyes. :P And death's do have a lot to do with how a war is remembered. One reason WW2 is the greatest war ever on the planet earth is a direct result of the number of death's from that war. Estimates I have read is about 50 million. No other war in history can even come close to that number.

You are taking the piss if you think that compares to the distrust and hatred much of Europe still has for each other, do you have civil war veterans still alive telling you what it was like?

[Ghostpanther]

You are taking the piss if you think that compares to the distrust and hatred much of Europe still has for each other, do you have civil war veterans still alive telling you what it was like?

No, that was a wee ways back. I have had however and do, family members who fought in WW2 and do not like talking about the horrors they saw and experienced over there. I had a uncle who spent a year in a German prison. But I do understand where you are coming from. England and some other countries in Europe suffered more than the US did in WW2. As did the Chinese and other Asian countries. A Civil war however can be worse in some ways. We would have to ask the victims what it felt like killing members of their own families in a war. Which did happen in the Civil War here. I absolutely agree there is a difference. But those differences have nothing really to do with what is a real war.
War of any kind is hell. And those which suffered in Europe can relate to that fact better than most can here. But that does not mean we have not suffered from the horrors of a real war.

[Caliph]

I don't know enough about the romani people. There were some here in the USA where i grew up and they were just weird. I understand them remaining distrustful of others, defensive etc. But they were known as thieves, con artists, contract wranglers etc. And they always pulled their kids out of school after 8th grade (age 14 or so girls around 12).

I don't understand why people/cultures find it so abhorrent that girls are educated. I understand that they want them to be mothers, wives, community care takers etc., but isn't it better for those future wives, mothers, caretakers to have more education and knowledge? wouldn't they do a better job at it.

There's also the 1000 yr history of people accusing romani of being thieves, heretics etc. At some point it isn't just some stereotype especially when they continue to do the same things. FFS change for the better, assimilate, educate. But it doesn't seem like they'll do that.

Still racism and harassment are wrong and shouldn't be allowed to occur.

[Deleted]

I don't know enough about the romani people. There were some here in the USA where i grew up and they were just weird. I understand them remaining distrustful of others, defensive etc. But they were known as thieves, con artists, contract wranglers etc. And they always pulled their kids out of school after 8th grade (age 14 or so girls around 12).

I don't understand why people/cultures find it so abhorrent that girls are educated. I understand that they want them to be mothers, wives, community care takers etc., but isn't it better for those future wives, mothers, caretakers to have more education and knowledge? wouldn't they do a better job at it.

There's also the 1000 yr history of people accusing romani of being thieves, heretics etc. At some point it isn't just some stereotype especially when they continue to do the same things. FFS change for the better, assimilate, educate. But it doesn't seem like they'll do that.

Still racism and harassment are wrong and shouldn't be allowed to occur.

You do not need an education to scrubs caravans and look after children, the men rarely bother with an education either because they are never in one place long enough to establish a business or career. You will find most of them are "scrap metal collectors", landscape gardeners or people that tarmac drives, all jobs that can be advertised by going door to door and asking, sometimes they don't even bother asking.

[Finnio]

The first thing these people need to do is stop fucking . For them condoms don't exist.
Second find some hot water and soap! Not smelling of piss and shit goes a long way!
Third learn to read and write !
Everything else that comes after these first 3 steps would be a lot easier to implement.

[Mihalik]

No, that was a wee ways back. I have had however and do, family members who fought in WW2 and do not like talking about the horrors they saw and experienced over there. I had a uncle who spent a year in a German prison. But I do understand where you are coming from. England and some other countries in Europe suffered more than the US did in WW2. As did the Chinese and other Asian countries.

This is the key word. Over there.

It didn't happen in your homes. Your houses didn't get bombed into the ground, your cities didn't turn into funeral pyres, you didn't spend days and nights in bunkers where millions upon millions of bombs pounded every single piece of infrastructure, industry, history into the ground. You didn't have to dig yourselves out of the ruins and have to rebuild 2000 years of history from the ground up, while dancing around unexploded bombs and landmines, this with an entire generation of mentally and physically scared men and women, and they were the lucky ones. You didn't have 1 out 4 or sometimes higher number of women in your family raped, sometimes repeatedly by occupying forces, girls from 12 to elderly. You never went through years of occupation, slave labor, mass re-locations, extermination camps, special killing units that executed people on the spot etc.

The American Civil War was certainly bad. But it was near contemporary to the Napoleonic Wars which were considerably worse, which lasted 12 years and had over 3.5 million casualties in Europe alone (conservative estimates based only on recorded deaths, other estimates place the numbers around 2 million higher), and hard to tell how many others in the Colonies, while the American Civil War killed around 1.3 million people.

Again Americans cannot grasp the scale of the devastation World War 1 and 2 left in Europe.

[Deleted]

lol liberals have done a pretty good job of propagandizing "bigotry" as ignorance

in fact bigotry is far from ignorance, its using past behavior to predict future behavior and what pisses you off is that it works

[Endus]

Since the thread has pretty much devolved into racism, and accusations about who is or is not racist, I'm just going to lock it.