Do you agree "if you don't raid, you don't need raid gear"?

[Greyce]

No it doesn't. It makes sense at the higher end because they will still continue to go back and reclear. Having more and more heroic gear makes that easier and easier. They've already proven they're capable of beating it with minimal gear, now it's time to gear people up. This allows faster clears, the ability to test new recruits in high end content, and numerous other things.

LFR has no challenge and getting more LFR gear doesn't affect the end result in any way. Not to mention that you lose all the people that are only going in there just to see the content and have no desire to clear it multiple times.

There are plenty of reasons that high end raiding would need better rewards than LFR would.

Um, no. The reasons are far more numerous for LFR to drop *level-appropriate* gear: namely, Flex/Normal and Heroic/Mythic. Moving up is what a lot of people do. And even if they don't, EVERYONE wants upgrades. Over the course of an entire expansion.

[RapBreon]

This. A million times this.

As I previously stated, this assumes a linear difficulty increase through the tiers. This is not true.

[Apexis]

Guys, guys, guys. LFR is not a tool to get gear, LFR is a tool to experience the content. So therefore it should not give any signifigant loot. If you are a serious player, then you go progress in a dungeon and you should be able to skip all the Bullshit difficulty such as flex and go directly to normal. Because that is the tradition of wow. LFR and Flex are for casuals and normal are for those who dedicate themselves. Flex as of WoD time will probably act as normal so i take my words back at that time, but as of now, Flex is just useless. Do not make casual content obligatory, that is my request. I want to enjoy dungeons and then go to a normal raid where i can progress and defeat the bosses that needs to be taken down and then feel like i am done.

ok, if normal is for those that "dedicate themselves" and LFR and Flex are for casuals, then us must be going to skip the normal raid content in WoD because Flex is becoming the new normal and normal is becoming heroic content. You were obligated to do LFR, you chose to make it that way to get around the RNG in normal raid content. LFR turned in to a raiders, RNG cash cow.

If you are any true progression raider of the past, then you would of waited to get the gear out of your progression raid content or used vendor gear as that is what progression raiders did along with doing heroic dungeons. Which is why you had to use the LFR in the first place, the total lack of heroic dungeons for both TOT and SoO. Though Blizzard made up somewhat for the lack there of putting 496 give me gear so people could jump into SoO.

many should be happy they had such and easy means to get gear to progress through the actual raid content. I am will to bet many would have not been able to any of the raid content without first going into the LFR, since we had not dungeons to get gear from. On a personal note if they are making LFR gear in line with Heroic dungeon gear they could of kept LFR gear the same way it is now. But only way to keep the raiders out of there was to change the gear. It going to punish the people that only do the LFR, but hopefully it turns out to be a less toxic learning environment that it should be. After all the LFR was about seeing the rest of the content and now about the gear. The gear was more of an incentive and sweetened the pie for both the casual player to want to do and encourage raiders in to help create some semblance of raid structure for those that have never experience raiding at all before.

That failed because of people like yourself, that looked at it as giving gear away to casuals. Which that led to treat people like crap, even if they were trying. It was a shame that many raider to be the a** approach that many seem to always take when something is not about them.

[Antbregante]

As someone who only LFRs I really don't care if I get raid gear or not. As long as I'm getting something better than my quest gear I'm happy.

[Shakari]

No, the gap would be much wider as you claim.
Training and time can only make up for so much.... But talent and natural skill can not be trained.
If that was only remotely true, we would have a nation of athletes.
Billions of people play soccer, from childhood on... millions of them frequently in clubs.. And yet only a few thousand are good enough to become professional players.
We can make these examples literally endless.. It applies to everything that has skill within the factors. Sports, profession. You name it.

No we would not have a nation of aethletes because 99% of those would not want to do that, which is what I also stated interest in the subject.

So out of the Millions of people that play football a talent scout goes and looks at each one ... I don't think so. For every super star found and recruited for a major team there's 100 just like him that never discovered or noticed, and will never be. Its takes 3 things to become a person of note these days in regards to excelling as a subject, 1. A passion and true interest in what your doing usually an obsession to which you devote ALL your time, 2. Talent, usually this goes hand in hand with 1. as most people are interested in what there good at and 3. Money .... there's very very few people what either do not have access to money or other sources of funding and become world leading in there field.

Yes natural talent for a subject does play a part but what I said is still valid. The talent gives the person an edge its does not give them overwhelming abilty compared to the next person with the same training, or we would have just one person winning everything all the time none stop.

[Durandro]

I don't agree, because that would mean heroic raiders don't need gear either, as they won't progress to a harder difficulty either.

I guess you don't understand how things work in heroic raids. Generally each boss is harder then the last, especially towards the end of a raid.

The only time gear wouldn't be 'needed' is killing the final boss. I'd be okay with the final boss only dropping cosmetic items, pets, mounts, titles, etc. But every other boss before needs to.

So don't even try it on.

[Shakari]

you.... you seriously think u wont be a lot behind usain bolt if u get the proper amount of training,money,time and equipment ? Have u heard about genes and dna ? Or the fact that because of those things you might have inherited traits that other ppl wont? If we follow your logic that that would mean that its not a problem to have another albert einstein or another beethoven or motzart. However i am kind of failing to see them around somehow ... maybe its just me though `shrug`

PS. I would love to see usain bolt become chess master and win a championship because apparently thats possible now it will be cool if nothing else

ps2(edit) : @Wildtree hahahaha u tell him mate! u tell`im

Where did I say everyone would be equal please read and try and understand my post before quoting it, so yes its just you :P

[Deleted]

What about pvp gear? If you don't pvp, you don't need pvp gear. Why would pve be different?

[jbombard]

Somewhat agree, but probably not with what how they have it set up in the first place. Why does raid gear have to be the best gear for all PvE? Why can't it just be the best gear for raiding? If it was simply the best gear for raiding I would have zero problems with it. It comes down to how much time you spend doing the activities you enjoy , and the rewards for spending that time should be gear that is good for those activities. Frankly, if they wanted to, they could basically just require raid tiers to require more and more hit as you progress. It seems silly that they say PvP is a valid activity and therefore they wan't people who participate in it to have the best gear for it, and then they same about raiding, but that leaves out a whole lot of players and play styles. If they want to keep as many players subscribed as possible they can't treat one (very large) subset of players as second class citizens.

[Tylanthia]

In WoD, you can get heroic raiding gear via garrisons. You can get normal raid gear via quests, crafting, and world bosses. No one will be forced to run LFR for gear (although many raiders will be forced to do other stuff for gear).

[CandyCotton Marshmallows]

Gear is a tool you need to be ready for the next boss.
If you don't intend to face that next boss, you don't need the gear.

Whether getting gear is nice in itself is an entire other matter.


You can beat the content without the gear. Hence you don't need it. But as you said: it's nice to have anyway.
I can't beat Garrosh HC in non raid gear. I NEED gear to be able to even stand a chance.

No, you don't need raid gear to beat H Garry. All you need is burdened timeless gear upgraded twice; it isn't much ilvl difference than what world first level guilds were downing the content in.

So, if -you- need gear to do content that others didn't 'need' it for; then you have to respect others wanting to continue to progress their toons as much as they can, for the content they wish to partake in, no matter how insignificant you may feel it is. Maybe they want to solo warbringers and elite dinos for those mounts ... not many people on dino island and not many group up for warbringers (since raid geared people easily solo them and no one wants to risk sharing the rolls).

So, when you keep semi-current non-raid world content as easily soloable by non-raid gear; then your argument has more merit. But it still falls flat on its face when you try to say you 'need' something others didn't need to do the same content, then tell someone else they don't need something you feel doesn't need it.

I don't care. I just think this elitist, divisive, separatist attitude is part of what is destroying WoW and its community. Jealousy and selfishness; instead of supportive and happy for your fellow gamer. It is bullshit and it should stop for the overall health of the game and the players. If someone fails, encourage them, don't yell 'you suck'; if someone gets loot, congratulate them, don't be envious or snobbish because you think you are better; your arrogance is pathetic. Simply be a decent human to other humans you interact with; a basic rule and it makes shit more enjoyable overall for everyone.

[Rizendragon]

Blizzard is crazy about gear lately.
The last patch creates 4 tiers. ilevel difference is 50+.

Now it tries to give LFR no tier bonus and bad looking gear.
The argument is "if you don't raid, you don't need raid gear".

Do you agree?

this is an opinion. T15 mage was a tier set that looks terrible too... some sets are hit some are miss.

- - - Updated - - -

No, you don't need raid gear to beat H Garry. All you need is burdened timeless gear upgraded twice; it isn't much ilvl difference than what world first level guilds were downing the content in.

False. The world first H Garrosh kill was done with an ailvl of 565ish. The burdened TI gear is 535 which makes the full upgrades 543. This is also failing to take trinkets and set bonuses into account. So no you are wrong. You do NEED raid gear to kill Heroic Garrosh

[Rizendragon]

No, I don't agree with it and I think it is rather the attitude of some people and not of Blizzard. If LFR is in fact on the difficulty of 5 man heroics, then it is fair to have similar "entry" gear.

Other than that, I hate if people try and tell me why and how I am allowed to gear based on their own perceptions. Maybe I like to advance my character to do quests easier? TI to name an example is just quicker in ilv 535 gear than in 483 gear.

I'm thinking that the removal of tier from LFR is a hint that Blizzard agrees that you don't need the top gear sets if you aren't going to progress through organized raiding.

[RapBreon]

No, you don't need raid gear to beat H Garry. All you need is burdened timeless gear upgraded twice; it isn't much ilvl difference than what world first level guilds were downing the content in.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/10/03/me...ld-first-race/

Average ilvl of 566.65. Which can be swayed quite dramatically with the inflated value of trinkets (in terms of raw stats). That and they'd have to access to BiS previous raid tier, which can be better than some of SoO's stuff (Rune of Reorigination for example). 566.65 is entry ilvl for heroic gear.

Yeah 23 item levels is huge, considering each item level is an exponential gain.

[Rizendragon]

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/10/03/me...ld-first-race/

Average ilvl of 566.65. Which can be swayed quite dramatically with the inflated value of trinkets (in terms of raw stats). That and they'd have to access to BiS previous raid tier, which can be better than some of SoO's stuff (Rune of Reorigination for example)

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/10/03/me...ld-first-race/

Yeah 23 item levels is huge, considering each item level is an exponential gain.

Exactly. The difference from a full TI geared toon and a full normal geared toon is about 200k dps.

[Hotmail]

As someone that's been playing the game since pre-TBC and has seen WoW degenerate from an amazing Multiplayer RPG into a Social "one size fit all" game... I'm very much inclined give them a chance with any controversial/heavyhanded design decision they want to make for WoD.

ActiBlizzard is free from its Vivendi shareholder obligations now, and it's no coincidence that Reaper of Souls and Hearthstone, from an artistic standpoint, turned out to be some of the best stuff Blizzard has churned out in a decade. Much, much closer to their roots.

Just give post-Vivendi Blizzard a chance. I'm going to disagree with answering this poll, for the simple reason that I think giving them some breathing room is that we really need to do. While it may be interesting to debate, I think we have a bigger problem on our hands, which is the sheer number of armchair designers hounding Blizzard at every step of the way.

[Tzalix]

Gear is progression, as such it obviously is a core feature for the game.

It just so happens that the end-game in PvE is raiding. That's where the best gear will be. If you don't go there, you don't need it. I understand that it can be frustrating, I'm far from the hardcore level myself, but that's just how these progressions work. Scenarios/Dungeons < LFR < Normal < Heroic < Mythic. If you've got the BiS LFR gear and don't intend on going any further, consider yourself maxed. If you don't feel like playing anymore without progression, take a break. There are other games to play.

[koltec]

im one who understand for the casuals to be able to do the story line quests and new things that come out every patch they do need better gear each time so lfr is good for that althought the tier bonuses are not needed for that. so i do like that lfr will have gear for them but no tier bonus is needed... flex or the new normal will be there new step up to get the lowest end tier.. and im sure a world boss will still drop tier so they wont be left completly out in the cold

[Rodd]

You only deserve rewards equal to the amount of effort you wish to put into what you do. The rewards will be there, waiting for those who deserve them. Do you deserve them? That remains to be answered by you and you alone, through action, not words.

Deserve? It's not a moral judgment on Blizzard's part. Why don't LFR players 'deserve' tier gear in WoD? They've had it in Cata and MoP. If LFR players don't 'deserve' it after two expansions of having it drop in LFR, than did they gear they didn't 'deserve'? Are they being punished (since, apparently, you believe it is a reward for "raiding")? There's no logical reason for Blizzard to removed Tier gear from LFR after having given it for running LFR.

[draykorinee]

I don't need it and I don't deserve if, I'm 545 I'll and I don't raid outside of the odd flex/lfr, that is fine. If I didn't do any of them I don't need them, end of. I like the gear upgrades for dungeon gear I think that should be more upgrade able and more easily so that non raiders can improve over an expansion.