Do you agree "if you don't raid, you don't need raid gear"?

[Chickat]

If you dont raid, you dont need tier sets. What you do need, is meaningful progression. Lfr will still provide that.

[Mormolyce]

Do non-raiders NEED raid gear? Obviously the answer is no.

Do I lose sleep if they get raid gear? No...

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If you dont raid, you dont need tier sets. What you do need, is meaningful progression. Lfr will still provide that.

The way I see it, with LFR dropping loot more regularly it'll feel more rewarding, and with tier rewards assigned to higher difficulties and flexi providing a lower difficulty hurdle to jump to, there will be a reasonable progression up to at least flexi from LFR, for those people don't or never have raided. So it sounds like a pretty decent system.

[Tyraena]

The question didn't revolve around subscription retention. Ofc gear is necessary for that, since gear is the only carrot WoW has. (A design fail if you ask me)

The question was: Do you need raid gear in WoW if you do not raid.
The answer is: you don't.

The implication is that LFR isn't raiding. Raiding isn't a level of difficulty, it is simply an encounter/event requiring greater than 5 players in a group to complete at max lvl. By that standard, LFR should have raid gear, as it is a type of raid. There are any numbers of ways of making it better than dungeon gear, less than Flex gear, but still valid stepping stones to move up the raid difficulty ladder, without neutering it entirely.

The issue here is too many "raiders" being elitist pricks in order to have a way to feel better about themselves. All I do is LFR and occasional flex. Not due to skill or time constraints, but more because, as much fail as LFR can have, it is still vastly more tolerable than the sort of crass ass-holishness that goes on with so many FLEX+ difficulty groups who just run along looking down their noses at anyone who isn't doing what they are. I'd much prefer to get in, do my best, get gear or not, then chill with my friends, than be in a guild full of dicks and jerks who rely on segregating the game community in order to puff up their chest at their imagined greatness.

[Halicia]

You don't need tier gear to do dailies and pet battles.

But how will dailies or pet battles provide an avenue for character improvement ?

No matter how many level 25 pets I have, or how many quests I've completed, my abilities are just as strong as they'd be had I not leveled the pets or done the dailies.

Certain other MMOs have endgame systems where, even after a hard level cap, you can continue to improve your character universally, through the same means with which you reached the level cap in the first place.

But if all an activity does is give me a new color to my hair, it's not compelling 'character development'.

[deviantcultist]

Mixed thoughts on the matter. I'll have to see it in action to be able to properly judge.

[hyphnos]

When raid gear has +raid power on it that only works in raids so that the gear from raiding doesn't provide an edge in non-raid content then we can discuss people not needing raid gear.

[RapBreon]

Wrong. The difference between the first boss of Heroic and the last boss of Heroic in a given tier is NOT greater than the difference between the first boss in LFR in that same tier and the last boss in Normal in that same tier.
Also wrong about ilvls: the difference between tiers has been 13 ilvls for a LONG time.

Ninja edit! I see, I indeed did say ilvls increase. I meant to say the effective ilvls increase. My apologies about that!

Allow me to explain; 520 to 533 is less of an overall increase than 533 to 546. There is an exponential gain in the value of each item level from the last, it is simply the way this game is designed. Look at the way DPS scales; exponentially. This is the whole reason they're doing an item squish. Just go take a look at Noxxic's DPS simulations (relevant here), they high-light the sharp curve in which DPS scales.

As for the difference in gear requirements. Lets look at the difference in health pools between the first and last boss of the varying difficulties (25man, rounded for the sake of simplicity);

N Immerseus; 218mil

N Garrosh; 451mil

H Immerseus; 268mil

H Garrosh; 676mil

I think without further elaboration (2.52 increase in health as opposed to a 2.07) you can see the sharp difference in sheer gear requirements to simply even beat H Garrosh's enrage timer in comparison to N Garrosh. This is a comparison, so the fact that Immerseus needs to be downed multiple times is irrelevant. This has been the foundation for them tuning raids from the beginning and was exacerbated by multiple difficulty levels.

This has nothing to do with removing gear from LFR and everything to do with the fallacious assumption that Heroic modes don't need gear when there is no other difficulty. Heroic was designed as the final test of heroic gear. Normal was not designed as the final test for normal gear by virtue of other difficulty levels.

[Renathras]

And if LFR didn't drop gear at all I would understand the fuss, but it does and will continue to do so, so people just need to stop.

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You don't need tier gear to do dailies and pet battles.

Oh yes, I largely agree. LFR will be dropping gear appropriate to use as a step to raiding, etc. the question I have is, why design new models and why not have set bonuses? It takes more time to make new models than revolt existing ones, and they're obviously thematic sets of gear, so having a set bonus would make sense.

This seems like just a change for change sake and to appease whiney raiders.

After all, if the argument you're making - that LFR players don't need as good gear. Well, gear with the same mode but inferior stats that carries set bonuses meets that requirement just fine.

The only reason to use different models (a net increase on Blizzard's workload) and not have set bonuses is to appease raiders that want to be special and not have other people in similar gear to them.

So basically, this is a lot of unnecessary work. What we had in Mists was fine - thematic gear sets with distinctly different coloration and weaker stats to raid gear.

This is change for the sake of hange to appease a minority crowd.
It's simply unnecessary.

[xenogear3]

Raiding always gave out best gear. For entire history of wow since MC was introduced, no exceptions. What are you complaining about?

Darkmoon Card: Greatness says hi.
I also bought a BoE valor wrist which was also BiS.

I guess that a causal wears 2 BiS makes you worry that he will out dps you.

The causal is not obsessed with gear.
They can live with 1.5 tier difference.

Look at the last patch, 3 tier difference.
Who is obsessed with gear?

[Fang7986]

If you raid, you should get raid gear.
There are 3 raid difficulties. LFR is not one of them.

I will never take something seriously that can carry 5 afk people and another 5 people with 40k dps and still oneshot the boss.

EDIT: If you want tier gear, LFR should be at least somewhat challenging, with the remote possibility of having a wipe on EVERY boss. If they tuned LFR so that every boss is like unnerfed Garalon, Lei Shen, Durumu and so on, then I would feel having LFR tier justified. Would people wipe? Yes. Would people learn sooner or later? Yes. By the end of the first raid tier, surprisingly few people fell to death on Elegon. Amazing, but people actually learned. Even in LFR, something that Blizzard seems to think it's impossible.
And I bet that people enjoyed those kills more, since it was a bit more than a tank and spank fight with no possibility of dying.

LFR is raiding though it might not be the raiding you like but it involves more than 5 people so it is raiding not dungeon running If you think you should only get gear if it's challenging how bout this if you die, you can't loot boss on all difficulties

[Florena]

LFR is raiding though it might not be the raiding you like but it involves more than 5 people so it is raiding not dungeon running If you think you should only get gear if it's challenging how bout this if you die, you can't loot boss on all difficulties

LFR is technically raiding but it also requires far less effort and coordination than the other raid difficulties. Hence lesser rewards.

[PrairieChicken]

Darkmoon Card: Greatness says hi.
I also bought a BoE valor wrist which was also BiS.

I guess that a causal wears 2 BiS makes you worry that he will out dps you.

The causal is not obsessed with gear.
They can live with 1.5 tier difference.

Look at the last patch, 3 tier difference.
Who is obsessed with gear?

Ok few outliers totally speak for every gear.

And if you aren't obsessed with gear why are you complaining about 3 tier difference? (Not saying it is good though)

[Seefer]

Darkmoon Card: Greatness says hi.
I also bought a BoE valor wrist which was also BiS.

I guess that a causal wears 2 BiS makes you worry that he will out dps you.

The causal is not obsessed with gear.
They can live with 1.5 tier difference.

Look at the last patch, 3 tier difference.
Who is obsessed with gear?

Ummmmmmmmm LFR people are obsessed with gear or there wouldn't be such an outrage.

[Zka]

ITT people seriously talking about "needs" in a video game.

If I want the gear, I should have it, I paid for it with my wallet.

You are also talking about your needs.
Also, you haven't paid for the gear. Like everyone else, you are paying for sever access, nothing more

[Deleted]

I don't need raid gear, Wayne Enterprises gives me all I need.

[Canderous1]

everyone needs gear progression. not everyone needs heroic raid gear, not everyone needs normal raid gear.

everyone needs a way to continually improve their character. with the absence of any type of character progression beyond max level (i.e. AA points or Paragon Levels) the only avenue is gear. I really have no problem with LFR gear being what it is right now, although i can see the other side of the coin (at least the reasonable other side) that doesnt think tier sets should drop in LFR.

[Hooliganz]

hi i'm a 7 days per week heroic raider on 7 alts every day full clear, noone else deserves any gear or else i don't have fun


this thread summed up

Infracted.

pretty much this

[Seefer]

pretty much this

I mean other than the fact that most heroic raiders raid maybe 3 days a week at most 4 hrs a day and I have even seen casual raid guilds with a lot of heroics down........sorry to burst your bubble but I'd wager non-raiders spend more time in game than raiders do, and the "I don't have time" excuse is honestly a cover up for "I don't want to get good, I want easy mode"

[Uoyredrum]

I agree but people do need to be able to get into raiding. It should be accessible but accessible shouldn't mean AFKing and watching TV while people carry you through LFR. Accessible should mean you can easily farm heroics with pugs or friends to get gear to get into the first raid tier and work your way up the chain gear-wise from there.

[Vaelorian]

I voted "completely disagree": But... let me say first that I don't think non-raiders should get gear that drops in raids.

What I mean is that everyone has the right to "progress their character". You want your character to grow. So whenever a raidtier is no longer current, the non raiders should get gear that allows them if they should so desire - to raid in the new tier. Catchup mechanisms.

Everyone starts an expansion the same way. You level up and get some heroic 5 man crap+crafted stuff. Then you as a raider enter "normal mode". You get gear there and enter heroic mode.

The non raiders levels up and gets some heroic 5 man crap + crafted stuff. Then he/she can enter LFR and get raidgear that is lesser then what "actual raiders" wear. This is fine.

The removal of tier gear in WoD in LFR, is a good thing. It makes raiders less interested/obligated to do LFR aswell as their regular raids.

So non raiders need to have improving gear just as raiders do to keep playing the game. And that is ofcourse what blizzard wants.

The other edge of the knife is this: If non-raiders do not get the opportunity that they can improve their characters throughout the expansion... the pool of potential recruits will also be smaller. Where do they get their gear from? So I am new but I want to raid... and it is 50% into the expansion. What good progression guild would ever recruit me in my heroic 5 man blues + crafted gear? No one.

So even if you "hate" catchup gear - you also need it very much if your guild wants to survive.

I already hear this: Ha! We never take newbs with catchup gear! We have real raiders knocking on our doors!

Right... so where do those raiders come from? Maybe they were taken in as a newb in their former guilds, geared up and then they applied to your guild... Oh...you did not think about it that way....