[PvP]Warrior reflecting my HoJ 80% of the time?

[Illana]

There is no way for a bot to auto reflect an instant cast

why not? It's clear there's a delay from the spell being cast to when it lands, pretty simple to code a bot that can recognise the spellid and reflect immediately.

[MerinPally]

There is no way for a bot to auto reflect an instant cast

I guess you never read the thread because this has already been discussed.

[rda]

why not? It's clear there's a delay from the spell being cast to when it lands, pretty simple to code a bot that can recognise the spellid and reflect immediately.

How's that clear? Could you explain? It's not clear to me.

I have read the thread and I don't see how one can write a bot that would get into the middle of an instant cast.

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Except it can, so don't comment if you don't have a clue.

Can you explain how, please?

[Illana]

How's that clear? Could you explain? It's not clear to me.

I have read the thread and I don't see how one can write a bot that would get into the middle of an instant cast.

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Can you explain how, please?

Guy hits HoJ>packet sent to server>server sends HoJ packet to victim>client checks conditions>conditions met returns packet to server>server sends packet to victim>victim receives HoJ

In between the part where the conditions are being calculated it's pretty easy to to just get a bot to recognise the packet when the HoJ is originally sent before the conditions are calculated.

[rda]

Guy hits HoJ>packet sent to server>server sends HoJ packet to victim>client checks conditions>conditions met returns packet to server>server sends packet to victim>victim receives HoJ

In between the part where the conditions are being calculated it's pretty easy to to just get a bot to recognise the packet when the HoJ is originally sent before the conditions are calculated.

I think it works differently:

Guy hits HoJ > packet sent to server > server checks conditions itself and APPLIES HoJ if the conditions are fine > server sends HoJ packet to victim

If it worked like you describe, it would have been possible to be HoJ-immune by hacking your client so it hijacks this step in your sequence - "client checks conditions" - and returns "conditions aren't met" for HoJ.

All checks are done server-side. I don't see the in-between.

[Illana]

I think it works differently:

Guy hits HoJ > packet sent to server > server checks conditions itself and APPLIES HoJ if the conditions are fine > server sends HoJ packet to victim

If it worked like you describe, it would have been possible to be HoJ-immune by hacking your client so it hijacks this step in your sequence - "client checks conditions" - and returns "conditions aren't met" for HoJ.

All checks are done server-side. I don't see the in-between.

how on earth would the server know what the conditions of the victim's client is without first sending a request?

Please don't talk about what you clearly have no idea about.

[rda]

how on earth would the server know what the conditions of the victim's client is without first sending a request?

Please don't talk about what you clearly have no idea about.

The server HAS to know what the conditions are on everyone's clients, because otherwise it would be exploitable from the client side.

[Illana]

The server HAS to know what the conditions are on everyone's clients, because otherwise it would be exploitable from the client side.

and how does it find out? Yes by sending a request and receiving a condition packet from the client.

Seriously stop embarrassing yourself.

Being exploitable from client side is exactly how this bot works.

[rda]

and how does it find out? Yes by sending a request and receiving a condition packet from the client.

Seriously stop embarrassing yourself.

Being exploitable from client side is exactly how this bot works.

The server knows what conditions are on everyone's clients because clients send it packets and the server computes a shared state of everyone from these packets. The important thing here, though, is that clients don't send stuff like "hey, I stunned that guy over there", they send stuff like "hey, I cast HoJ on that guy" and it is the server that determines whether this guy is now going to be stunned or not.

The person embarrassing yourself in this conversation is actually you.

Client-side exploits you are talking about are too naive to work in WoW. Yes, I know what I am talking about.

[Illana]

The server knows what conditions are on everyone's clients because clients send it packets and the server computes a shared state of everyone from these packets. The important thing here, though, is that clients don't send stuff like "hey, I stunned that guy over there", they send stuff like "hey, I cast HoJ on that guy" and it is the server that determines whether this guy is now going to be stunned or not.

The person embarrassing yourself in this conversation is actually you.

Client-side exploits you are talking about are too naive to work in WoW. Yes, I know what I am talking about.

and how does the server know? Is it psychic? There is an order to how things are calculated, it can't parallel process things that rely on one condition to process another. Otherwise contradictions occur and that's when you get errors.

You really do have no idea what you are talking about.

[villie]

Plus there are also rolls for hit rating going on which create extra feedback loops, which give a bot ample time to recognise the HoJ and reflect it

[rda]

and how does the server know? Is it psychic? There is an order to how things are calculated, it can't parallel process things that rely on one condition to process another. Otherwise contradictions occur and that's when you get errors.

You really do have no idea what you are talking about.

The server knows the characteristics, buffs, etc, for everyone from the "I attempted to cast that spell - please tell me if its OK and tell me the results of the cast" packets that all the clients are sending it.

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Plus there are also rolls for hit rating going on which create extra feedback loops, which give a bot ample time to recognise the HoJ and reflect it

These checks are done on the server at the time when the server determines the effect of the spell that some client tried to cast. There is no "plus" here in terms of packets.

[Illana]

The server knows the characteristics, buffs, etc, for everyone from the "I attempted to cast that spell - please tell me if its OK and tell me the results of the cast" packets that all the clients are sending it.

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These checks are done on the server at the time when the server determines the effect of the spell that some client tried to cast. There is no "plus" here in terms of packets.

You don't make any sense.

You just keep going on about the same thing which I already explained how it doesn't work: you get contradictions if the server sends out multiple commands without any kind of priority. There HAS to be a master and the slaves (the clients) must obey the final command from the master and what it deems the correct sequence of actions is.

The server processes packets AS IT RECEIVES THEM and will chronologically sort and reply.

Obviously the server will know the current state of the clients but when it receives a new packet it has to sort it based on the information given.

[rda]

You don't make any sense.

You just keep going on about the same thing which I already explained how it doesn't work: you get contradictions if the server sends out multiple commands without any kind of priority. There HAS to be a master and the slaves (the clients) must obey the final command from the master and what it deems the correct sequence of actions is.

The server processes packets AS IT RECEIVES THEM and will chronologically sort and reply.

Obviously the server will know the current state of the clients but when it receives a new packet it has to sort it based on the information given.

Yes, there is a master and slaves, the master is the server and the slaves are clients. Yes, the server processes packets as it receives them, serially. So?

You said it works like this:

Guy hits HoJ>packet sent to server>server sends HoJ packet to victim>client checks conditions>conditions met returns packet to server>server sends packet to victim>victim receives HoJ

Well, it doesn't work this way, because this way lets clients play a master.

Instead, it works like this:

Guy hits HoJ > packet sent to server > server checks conditions itself and APPLIES HoJ if the conditions are fine > server sends HoJ packet to victim

That's what it means that the server is the master - it is the server that decides unilaterally who is where, at which HP and whether they are CCd / buffed, etc. The only thing that the server gets from clients is "I tried to cast spell X / use item Y". The server timestamps these things, processes them and tells the clients who's now dead, etc.

Problems?

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Bottom line:

Don't think reflecting HoJ was done by a bot. I thought, you, guys, had something that favored this hypothesis (didn't read the entire thread / might have missed), but it looks like this isn't the case. So, it was probably just good prediction skills plus one or two lucky coincidences.

[Zylos]

Having played both a paladin and a warrior... most paladins are pretty predictable with when they are gong to use it. There are also addons that can countdown enemy timers for you.

[Jalopy]

It's literally impossible for a bot to react to an instant cast spell so fast that it manages to cast spell reflect in time.

[Deleted]

This thread in a nutshell:

People who claims cheating: Hes cheating!
People with common sense: No hes not cheating
People who claims cheating: You dont know what you're talking about, I've been at 1600 rating I've seen some things man!
People with common sense: Umm great proof there, really...

This thread goes on to validify how PvPers can be some of the most childish and sore losers, that they report someone that beat them for cheating.

[Revolutions]

Guy hits HoJ>packet sent to server>server sends HoJ packet to victim>client checks conditions>conditions met returns packet to server>server sends packet to victim>victim receives HoJ

In between the part where the conditions are being calculated it's pretty easy to to just get a bot to recognise the packet when the HoJ is originally sent before the conditions are calculated.

except that not how bots work or will ever work. If the bot could read packets being sent by the other player why not just DDOS him for an easy win?

Odds are is that everytime the paladin was going to go hoj the warrior, he would move toward the warrior giving him plently of time and making it ridiculously obvious that he was about to HoJ.

[shallo]

A bot cannot spell reflect an instant cast spell. The way that the ability (spell reflect) is coded into the game makes it impossible. But a bot CAN cloak / ice block a spell.

The reasoning for this is as follows:

- Bots use the combat log to detect when a spell has been cast on them. They use the event SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS.
- For spell reflect, for you to reflect something your SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS of spell reflect must come BEFORE the spell being reflected (again just how the game is coded)

So lets say for HoJ it would go like this:

- SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS HoJ
- SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS Reflect
--- HOJ would not get reflected. This is the only way a bot reacts.

- SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS Reflect
- SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS HoJ
--- HOJ would get reflected. A bot wouldn't function this way because the HoJ hasn't been sent to the server yet so it doesn't know to react.

The cloak example would be:
- SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS HoJ
- SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS Cloak of Shadows
--- In this scenario, you could actually cloak of shadows the HoJ but only because the way cloak of shadows works. It doesn't function like reflect.

So like I said, a bot cannot reflect HoJ's (on purpose anyways) but it can cloak one because of different spell functions.

If you don't believe me feel free to go test it in game. Have a casted spell with travel time (like frostbolt) go on you and when the spell is mid-air hit reflect. You will have the reflect buff but still get hit by the spell 100% of the time. Now do that same thing with cloak and you will not get hit by the frostbolt.

[rda]

If you don't believe me feel free to go test it in game. Have a casted spell with travel time (like frostbolt) go on you and when the spell is mid-air hit reflect. You will have the reflect buff but still get hit by the spell 100% of the time. Now do that same thing with cloak and you will not get hit by the frostbolt.

Exactly. Cloaking something is possible explicitly because the server processes that spell differently from others. Some of the spells do get special processing on the server, sometimes due to the way they have to work, sometimes due to limitations or flaws in the current implementation by Blizzard. Some of these corner cases have been exploited in the past. But it's always something special.

Bots do exist, yes. A bot can easily kick something that has a cast time, for example. This can get annoying, yes, this can lose games. But reflecting an instant cast, well... no evidence that this has happened.