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  1. #101
    Warchief Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondwind View Post
    If stormbolt is going to stay as powerful as it is, it needs to stay in a tier where it's competing with other cooldowns (and also get buffed for Arms). As it stands, since it got switched places with Bladestorm, Stormbolt is brokenly overpowered (the "no duh" option of the tier), meanwhile Bladestorm is now the god-awful option of its tier (see: talent that is at best DPS neutral, more likely DPS loss, on single target, in a damage cooldown tier). The mention of Stormbolt needing a nerf is in context of Stormbolt remaining in a tier alongside Dragon Roar and Shockwave with that being a Stun/CC tier.
    I know what you meant. I was putting it into a funny context.

    Two things come to mind:
    1) Tuning hasn't come to pass, and
    2) Bladestorm is still the AoE talent of choice. Clear winner over Avatar and Bloodbath might be good when paired with Ravager but Bladestorm would still be better burst AoE.

    I like to think that things have their niche. Shockwave is the prime stun talent. Stormbolt is the prime damage ability I could even see removing the Stun component entirely in favor of Shockwave. Dragon Roar doesn't really have a niche, but two primarily damage talents on the same tier is no bad thing.

    I just don't think every talent needs to be completely competitive for damage with one another as long as they can bring something to the table and be inherently useful. For one, Shockwave would never be competitive damage just because of its inherent heavy stun component. This is why Stormbolt only does extra damage on stun immune mobs. Even if Shockwaves damage went up to the point of AoE competitiveness, do we really need three AoE talents in Shockwave, Bladestorm and Ravager? I imagine we'd start running out of GCDs.

  2. #102
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondwind View Post
    If stormbolt is going to stay as powerful as it is, it needs to stay in a tier where it's competing with other cooldowns (and also get buffed for Arms). As it stands, since it got switched places with Bladestorm, Stormbolt is brokenly overpowered (the "no duh" option of the tier), meanwhile Bladestorm is now the god-awful option of its tier (see: talent that is at best DPS neutral, more likely DPS loss, on single target, in a damage cooldown tier). The mention of Stormbolt needing a nerf is in context of Stormbolt remaining in a tier alongside Dragon Roar and Shockwave with that being a Stun/CC tier.
    Part of the reason its so OP is "this tier" specific.

    Scaling (TG being so strong)

    EEoG (1 SB every CS)

    Changes these, and other, factors, and SB loses value.

    There will always be 1 superior, objective chose. If not SB, it'll be BB etc.

  3. #103
    Two things really.

    When you watch inventor investment TV shows, the one thing almost every investor hates is making a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I see no issues with Colossus smash, I realise that is wholly my own opinion but I wouldn't invest in your idea.

    Secondly, and I realise this is fixable, but allowing people to pick up Shockwave/Dragon roar as well as Bladestorm on different talent tiers is horrible news for pvp and while you may not care about the pvp situation, balancing certainly prevents this from setting up the way you've outlined it.

  4. #104
    Probally Storm Bolt will come back at the end of Wod with Bloodbath and Anger Management to be used in line with colossus smash.
    But i think in early stage of the game, colossus smash with glyph used with bloodbath,ignite weapon and dragon's roar will be a good pick in fights when you can be static in the back of the boss.

    sorry for the bad english

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by bertzz View Post
    Probally Storm Bolt will come back at the end of Wod with Bloodbath and Anger Management to be used in line with colossus smash.
    But i think in early stage of the game, colossus smash with glyph used with bloodbath,ignite weapon and dragon's roar will be a good pick in fights when you can be static in the back of the boss.

    sorry for the bad english
    I will be shocked if the glyph is as good/better than unglyphed cs. I take it as a way for suboptimal players to get better numbers not optimal players getting better numbers. I could be wrong. I do agree with bb/dr though untill sb is close to once per cs window I see those as being the choices much like mop. Dr/bb early, storm bolt/bb later
    Last edited by Jeroun; 2014-05-13 at 02:20 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Suddenly, there's a lot for me to get through here. I'm going to have to be brief, but bring up anything I've not commented on that you feel should be.
    My essay here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post27005053

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeroun View Post
    I will be shocked if the glyph is as good/better than unglyphed cs. I take it as a way for suboptimal players to get better numbers not optimal players getting better numbers. I could be wrong. I do agree with bb/dr though untill sb is close to once per cs window I see those as being the choices much like mop. Dr/bb early, storm bolt/bb later
    Blizzard will have to make the rating conversion for readiness absolutely bonkers to make it a stat that can compete with the others. You'll be able to get a 20 second storm bolt first tier no problem.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Ah, the real reason you're posting with such hostility. Another elitist screed. It's not as if we've not seen THIS before, when someone's ability to play is judged during an expansion where they've barely bothered to play much at all, and certainly not other than the odd half hour every few nights since 5.4. But that's cool. You're a better player than I am thanks to your commitment to a video game, and you're trying to belittle me for it on an Internet forum.
    I rarely post on these forums but seriously for a person who "barely bothered to play much at all" during this expansion there's a lot of us that wouldn't find your statements credible. True there's data yada yada but you can't base everything on it. You have to play fury throughout the whole expansion in almost every difficulty to truly make yourself credible. Otherwise you're just some level 90 boost warrior that whispers veteran warriors "hey guyz let me tell you about your class and how it should change" Fury wars arent the most perfect class out there but performed well at any ilvl you can compete for top spots in a raid. CS rotation isnt the problem the problem are people who are marginally dissatisfied are more likely to voice their dissatisfaction than those who do like it. You wont see forum threads here about "Why I LOVE CS ROTATION".

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    My essay here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post27005053

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    Blizzard will have to make the rating conversion for readiness absolutely bonkers to make it a stat that can compete with the others. You'll be able to get a 20 second storm bolt first tier no problem.
    Excellent. I loves me my 20 second sb. Especially if I can have bb with it

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    Blizzard will have to make the rating conversion for readiness absolutely bonkers to make it a stat that can compete with the others. You'll be able to get a 20 second storm bolt first tier no problem.
    They should just make sb baseline at 20 sec, tune it for the change and give us something else in it's stead then. It's just going to be clunky if what you mentioned is going to be the case. Though we do not know how easy it's going to get our hands on the stat. But giving us a readiness cap is silly when they're getting rid of (haste) caps.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I know what you meant. I was putting it into a funny context.
    I'm just gonna take "Poe's Law" on this one then.

    Two things come to mind:
    1) Tuning hasn't come to pass, and
    2) Bladestorm is still the AoE talent of choice. Clear winner over Avatar and Bloodbath might be good when paired with Ravager but Bladestorm would still be better burst AoE.
    I don't like Bladestorm being something that is situational that you only take in a major AoE situation. It has been my favorite Arms ability since I started playing, and was ecstatic to see it viable again after the buff Arms got to it. I would hate to see it go back to being such a niche ability that I hardly ever get to use it.

    The tier Bladestorm got shunted into is a dps cooldown tier. That is going to cause problems, because Bladestorm is not a DPS cooldown. It is fitting a square peg into a round hole. It doesn't work. The solution is either make Bladestorm work such that it is a single target DPS increase, or make the rest of the talent tier better fit with bladestorm. I chose to go with the latter.

    I like to think that things have their niche. Shockwave is the prime stun talent. Stormbolt is the prime damage ability I could even see removing the Stun component entirely in favor of Shockwave. Dragon Roar doesn't really have a niche, but two primarily damage talents on the same tier is no bad thing.
    Balancing talents is all about picking the theme that all talents on that tier share, and providing different variations on that theme.

    Originally the tier in question was an AoE damage tier. Dragon Roar was for single target/light cleave, Bladestorm for major aoe damage, and Shockwave for lesser AoE damage but stun utility. All three talents provided AoE damage that worked differently to fit different situations.

    Now that they are throwing Stormbolt in there, that design no longer exists. They seem to be going with the PVPer's perception of it as the Stun talent tier. Going with Stun tier as the theme, the tier needs to be rebalanced with that in mind. And that means bringing all three talents into line damage wise, with the prime differentiator being how the stun gets applied and what differences that makes on the playstyle.

    I just don't think every talent needs to be completely competitive for damage with one another as long as they can bring something to the table and be inherently useful. For one, Shockwave would never be competitive damage just because of its inherent heavy stun component. This is why Stormbolt only does extra damage on stun immune mobs.
    No. Stormbolt does extra damage on stun immune mobs because it was set on a tier next to Avatar and Bloodbath, major DPS cooldowns, and needed to provide damage competitive with those talents. Shockwave should provide less damage than stormbolt, but stormbolt absolutely should not be dealing enough damage to act as a DPS cooldown when it is no longer competing with other dps cooldowns to earn its spot. Being a stun usable at range already provides a meaningful utility compared to Shockwave's AoE. The real talent that needs fixing to fit in with those two is Dragon Roar.

    Even if Shockwaves damage went up to the point of AoE competitiveness, do we really need three AoE talents in Shockwave, Bladestorm and Ravager? I imagine we'd start running out of GCDs
    What you described is what is currently in the alpha, where a single warrior can choose to spec into all three of those abilities. My proposal is actually to consolidate Ravager onto the same tier as Bladestorm alongside one other option for pure AoE damage. While yes, you would still have the option for increased AoE damage from Shockwave on the stun tier, it is still less than what is currently planned, and easier to balance each tier.

    Part of the reason its so OP is "this tier" specific.

    Scaling (TG being so strong)

    EEoG (1 SB every CS)

    Changes these, and other, factors, and SB loses value.

    There will always be 1 superior, objective chose. If not SB, it'll be BB etc.
    I believe it was already mentioned, but if readiness goes live as a stat, it's almost certain 20s stormbolt will be easy to achieve in the first tier. As for scaling, as far as I can remember Stormbolt getting buffed for Fury is what made TG suddenly pull ahead of SMF. Even if it wasn't, Stormbolt being such a massive boost for 1 of 3 specs was bad design either way.

    As for there always being 1 superior, objective, choice may be true, but they can be brought close enough in line that except for the top 1% people can choose the talent that suits their personal preference best. The trick is to create talents that are easily fine tuned and make meaningful gameplay differences so that feel choice has a point.

  11. #111
    Warchief Archimtiros's Avatar
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    There are all sorts of caps and there always will be. Every class will have readiness caps, to some degree. We will have a Haste cap for extra GCD although it is not really worth pursuing atm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondwind View Post
    I don't like Bladestorm being something that is situational that you only take in a major AoE situation. It has been my favorite Arms ability since I started playing, and was ecstatic to see it viable again after the buff Arms got to it. I would hate to see it go back to being such a niche ability that I hardly ever get to use it.
    I mean... maybe you don't like it, but that is what it is. It is an AoE attack. It is a complete fluke that we use it for single target at all, and definitely not a design intent that we simply figured out late. I agree it is a fun ability, but even if it was a baseline spell, we wouldn't use it for single target damage if not for its uniqueness (rage positive, good scaling, etc).

    The tier Bladestorm got shunted into is a dps cooldown tier. That is going to cause problems, because Bladestorm is not a DPS cooldown. It is fitting a square peg into a round hole. It doesn't work. The solution is either make Bladestorm work such that it is a single target DPS increase, or make the rest of the talent tier better fit with bladestorm. I chose to go with the latter.
    These tiers are going to change names a dozen times over though. Whatever you want to consider them is your personal opinion. You say Bladestorm is not a DPS cooldown because you love the ability and want to use it all the time. I say it is a DPS cooldown because it has a moderate cooldown and it does DPS. It also has a DPS niche and that is burst AoE.

    Balancing talents is all about picking the theme that all talents on that tier share, and providing different variations on that theme.
    I only agree part of the time. When three talents heal you, yes balancing the heal becomes an issue. When talents bring a mix of damage and utility however, balancing talents is not about being 100% competitive with eachother. Talent placement is predicated around what the developers want us to have access to.
    The idea isn't that Shockwave should be competitive with Dragon Roar should be competitive with Storm Bolt.
    The idea is that we should not have access to Shockwave at the same time as Storm Bolt and that compete in such a way that both have their uses for different situations.

    In a perfect world, these two ideals would line up; in our world my point is much more important than yours (from a design perspective).

    the tier needs to be rebalanced with that in mind. And that means bringing all three talents into line damage wise, with the prime differentiator being how the stun gets applied and what differences that makes on the playstyle.
    Again, I see your point but I am not necessarily inclined to agree. First off Dragon Roar isn't even a stun, yeah it has a half a second knock down effect, big whoop (now if they made it into a single targeted fear that could be cool...). Second, there is really no reason for them all to compete with eachother for damage.
    Would it be nice? Yes. Necessary? Not really. That is up to the designers. They can just as easily say "we want you to take Storm Bolt for damage, but you can sacrifice damage for some extra stun utility via Shockwave or whatever the fuck Dragon Roar does."
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Just because some PvP kids have labeled it "the Stun teir" doesn't mean jack. You might as well say that Second Wind and Enraged Regeneration should have DPS bonuses because Impending Victory does damage.

    No. Stormbolt does extra damage on stun immune mobs because it was set on a tier next to Avatar and Bloodbath, major DPS cooldowns.
    Perhaps, I still am inclined to think that Storm Bolt did extra damage so if you took it and accidentally tried to hit something that was stun immune it wouldn't just do jack, but this really doesn't matter.
    What you described is what is currently in the alpha, where a single warrior can choose to spec into all three of those abilities. My proposal is actually to consolidate Ravager onto the same tier as Bladestorm alongside one other option for pure AoE damage. While yes, you would still have the option for increased AoE damage from Shockwave on the stun tier, it is still less than what is currently planned, and easier to balance each tier.
    What I described is within the current realm of possibility. What you described is a theory. The problem though is what is the point of having Bladestorm and Ravager side by side? You pigeonhole the players into choosing whichever is the strongest at the time, and both see less use because of it. Granted this happens with other talents but to a lesser extent. This is why you rarely see talents operate that way and generally you have an AoE Talent, Single Target Talent and wild card all together.

    as far as I can remember Stormbolt getting buffed for Fury is what made TG suddenly pull ahead of SMF. Even if it wasn't, Stormbolt being such a massive boost for 1 of 3 specs was bad design either way.
    TG pulled ahead of SMF during T15, before Storm Bolt was ever buffed (in T16). Storm Bolt did contribute to TG being king this tier, but it was already ahead of SMF without Storm Bolt.

    As for there always being 1 superior, objective, choice may be true, but they can be brought close enough in line that except for the top 1% people can choose the talent that suits their personal preference best. The trick is to create talents that are easily fine tuned and make meaningful gameplay differences so that feel choice has a point.
    Again I agree in theory/perfect world, but that is a lot heavier burden on the developers with regards to balancing. Its hard enough to balance all the different classes and specs against eachother right now with the idea of one talent being the "best damage", but all three? (to point: I have no idea if this is actual intent or not, it is just a point).

    I guess my TLDR is that your ideas have merit but they aren't the absolute requirements the way you portray them. It seems to me you are pigeon holing things more than they need to be.

    Edit: I really hate this quote line for line back and forth so you'll forgive if I don't make another large sweeping post after your reply.
    Last edited by Archimtiros; 2014-05-13 at 11:57 PM.

  12. #112
    Edit: I really hate this quote line for line back and forth so you'll forgive if I don't make another large sweeping post after your reply.
    Fair enough. I will avoid responding point by point.

    Your large overarching point seems to be: The talents are the way they are due to intentional design. I disagree with that point. The way they are on live fits a clear design. But the switch of Bladestorm and Stormbolt seems to be being made exclusively in response to PVP crying about Warrior stuns. Seriously go through the feedback over this expansion, you will regularly see people insisting that since Stormbolt is a stun it should be on the same tier as Shockwave. That is their entire thought process and logic, ignoring any other points about it.

    The developers made the switch in what appears to be a move to appease these people, but it is not well though through. The design no longer fits. You are arguing from the position that we should always take a certain talent except in an unusual situation that favors a different one. This is not the philosophy that the developers have espoused since the new talent system was introduced, and not the way the vast majority of the talents have been balanced.


    As for Bladestorm being a DPS cooldown, by your loose definition (a cooldown ability that does DPS), Shockwave is a DPS cooldown. This is a laughably wrong statement. In a talent tier that has been all about increasing single target DPS, a talent that at best breaks even in single target is woefully out of place. It does not fit as a DPS cooldown by any stretch of the imagination, and you are being intellectually dishonest in implying otherwise.

  13. #113
    Warchief Archimtiros's Avatar
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    It just gets cluttersome! And I know I have a tendency to skim gigantic posts so I am sure others who care less about the discussion at hand than I do will skip it entirely.

    I don't consider Shockwave a DPS cooldown because the damage component is very small (when compared to other baseline abilities), and the stun component is so large. Neither of which are true for Bladestorm. You can call it wrong, but it is a matter of perception.

    [qoute]In a talent tier that has been all about increasing single target DPS[/quote]
    I don't understand what you mean? None of our talent tiers are focused on Single target before or after WoD changes. Currently Bladestorm competes with shockwave and dragon roar, neither of which are single target (though to be fair, dragon roar should be because of stupid mechanics).
    In WoD, it will compete with Bloodbath (which is good on AoE, and could be paired with Ravager to that effect though it wouldn't be better than BS) and Avatar, which is just as much as AoE increase as a Single Target one.

    That said, you completely ignored my argument in that not every talent in a tier needs to directly compete with one another. In fact it is rather rare amongst class design.
    Usually you have 1 aoe, 1 st, 1 wild card talent; ie: Bladestorm, Bloodbath, Avatar could fit that mold, though loosely because as I said both Avatar and BB could be AoE increases (though neither would be compared to Bladestorm which is why I said it).
    Currently we have Bladestorm, Shockwave and Dragon Roar which fits this mold. Dragon Roar is primarily ST, Bladestorm is AoE, Shockwave is the wildcard/utility.
    I never said that one talent should be king until you need another, though that often ends up the case. It is more that every talent has its usefulness and that we never had, and likely never will have complete harmony between talent competitiveness. It simply isn't very realistic.
    I do agree entirely that Storm Bolt is being moved in with Shockwave because of the stunning component. That doesn't mean that the three talents need to be competitive with eachother or even that they should. Because if all three did the same amount of damage why would you ever take Storm Bolt which does that damage without stunning, or only stunning one target; instead of shockwave which does that damage while stunning many targets? I know that example has flaws but you see my point.

    Yes it makes sense if they all compete exactly, ie: a single target tier, a stun tier, an AoE tier.
    But they by no means have to be, and indeed often do not.
    Last edited by Archimtiros; 2014-05-14 at 12:21 AM.

  14. #114
    On single target Bladestorm acts basically the same way Killing Spree dose for Rogues, as in, it dose dose a high amount of damage on the main target, while it also locks you into that specific thing for a short duration. In that sense BS can be considered a cooldown, but it can just as well be seen as a rotational attack as well as we kinda treat it like one.
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  15. #115
    At the start of this expansion I wasn't in love with CS but that was mostly cause of PvP and that was with arms not fury. In heroic raiding it was getting enraged to use RB that bugged me. Cause outside of CS there was next to nothing to press. It was twiddle your thumbs waiting for CS to come up. But the fault isn't CS, but nothing else to press outside of CS, except for heroic throw and a heroic strike or what not.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by galvin View Post
    At the start of this expansion I wasn't in love with CS but that was mostly cause of PvP and that was with arms not fury. In heroic raiding it was getting enraged to use RB that bugged me. Cause outside of CS there was next to nothing to press. It was twiddle your thumbs waiting for CS to come up. But the fault isn't CS, but nothing else to press outside of CS, except for heroic throw and a heroic strike or what not.
    If pressing Heroic Strike was what you did outside of CS, then you simply did it wrong.
    I for one was never at the point where I basically did nothing outside of CS. I even used RBs without CS sometimes, can you believe it?
    Sure we had 1-2 empty GCDs once in awhile, but that was nothing gamebreaking.

  17. #117
    Warchief Archimtiros's Avatar
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    T14 was the only time we really had empty GCDs. The rotation became pretty smooth throughout T15 and is now incredibly fluid in T16 gear. Storm Bolt helps a lot as well, more than people realize.

  18. #118
    I can appreciate the design intent behind colossus smash and I enjoy it for the most part, but I can't put into words how annoying it is when you apply CS to a target and then have to switch targets, move away from boss, or it dies before you can even spend some GCDs on it. Whether that's a lack of skill on my part, then so be it.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by hollafame View Post
    I can appreciate the design intent behind colossus smash and I enjoy it for the most part, but I can't put into words how annoying it is when you apply CS to a target and then have to switch targets, move away from boss, or it dies before you can even spend some GCDs on it. Whether that's a lack of skill on my part, then so be it.
    That sounds like more of a lack of planning on your part. Although you want to use CS as much as possible, you generally don't want to CS anything you won't be able to dump 4 GCDs into. IE. If (like you said) you are going to be switching targets, moving away from your target, or your target is about to die (assuming it isn't the Boss...), you'll most likely want to save CS for your next target.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It seems like most people are upset with CS because using it properly takes a tiny amount of thought processing.
    IMHO, those of us that actually care about playing Fury Warriors, love Colossus Smash.
    Last edited by Windowflip; 2014-05-14 at 12:19 PM.

  20. #120
    Sort out arms pve, then maybe CS can be talked about imo. Used to be so facking fun.

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