Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill 1.1

[Megraam]

Just to clear some issues:
If citizens of Russia and residents of Siberia are going to held a referendum to proclaim their independence from Russia: fine, let them do it. Why not?
If citizens of Russia and residents of Karelia are going to held a referendum to proclaim their independence from Russia: fine, let them do it. Why not?

[Shalcker]

It failed terribly for the US. Al-Assad still rule Syria and Putin got a wave of sympathy just for defending its interest in the middle-east. Too bad it ended abruptly when Putin decided to do the same thing in Ukraine.

Nothing ended there yet, and Putin still has a lot of sympathizers - even in West, as you can see in this and similar threads.

Except Kiev offered them to talk, by letting them participate in the elections.

In elections where their candidates were forced out (like Tsarev), and they had no chance of having their voice heard?

The rebels didnt do any compromise, they didnt want to recognize anyone. They werent interessed.

They were; just not at Ukrainian gunpoint.

Or that would mean that Kiev is wanting to talk right now.

Well, they do seem a lot more open to idea of international peacekeeping force now then a few months ago...

[Gangresnake]

Why couldn't they?

No, that's not "not willing to talk". That's just "not recognizing current Kiev government".

I think you're missing something here.
They dont recognize the post-coup gov, they dont recognize the national elections, they dont recognize the newly elected government.
Why would Kiev recognize their republic ?

This isnt a dreamworld, you cant be overly selective about the reality you "recognize" and then expect no consequences.
They made absolutely no compromises, and still expected some from Kiev.
So kiev had to bring the reality to them.

[Deleted]

I think you're missing something here.
They dont recognize the post-coup gov, they dont recognize the national elections, they dont recognize the newly elected government.
Why would Kiev recognize their republic ?

This isnt a dreamworld, you cant be overly selective about the reality you "recognize" and then expect no consequences.
They made absolutely no compromises, and still expected some from Kiev.
So kiev had to bring the reality to them.

Elections were to be held on 29 March 2015. By participating in the "new" elections, they would declare groups that took over central government as legit. That's where it ends.
Kiev brings reality to them and take back their own dead soldiers.

[Gangresnake]

Nothing ended there yet, and Putin still has a lot of sympathizers - even in West, as you can see in this and similar threads.

In elections where their candidates were forced out (like Tsarev), and they had no chance of having their voice heard?

They were; just not at Ukrainian gunpoint.

Well, they do seem a lot more open to idea of international peacekeeping force now then a few months ago...

Tsarev wasnt their only candidate, Dobkin defended their interest too. And he got 3%.
They were willing to talk in a world where they werent occupying Ukranian soil and thus had to make no compromise. A dreamworld.

[malgin]

There are about 800k of refugees who entered Russia territory and the vast majority of which are women and children. Most men stayed to defend their lands from Kiev forces. There should be at least 100k men who able fight against Kiev coup.

[Ravenblade]

Most movements weren't forced to do that. What separatists did was a reaction. It was not planned, as they didn't know that there would be a coup in Kiev.
They were willing to talk to Kiev, but Kiev wasn't listening. Kiev wanted all, no compromise. They had to do it.

What did they want to talk about? Their major concern was being forcefully ukrainified (if that's even a word) by having their language to be forbidden to begin with. The law was silly to begin with and repealed quickly. It weren't even economical concerns. They rushed for a referendum which was not granted because simply only a legitimate government could grant that and herein lies the problem, the protesters did not recognize the interim government as legitimate yet wanted to be granted something as if it were legitimate. They were offered a referendum after broad public discourse and a constitutional reform including decentralization after a legitimate government was actually elected. This was not enough and the problem with that was obviously especially for the organizers that public discourse could cool the heated minds, that it may take too much time and in the end might make them lose an opportunity forever.

The key point is that this movement existed before and they tried to take a shortcut. They used the weakness and de facto limbo state of the new Kiev government to go from mere sponsoring of counter-protests to full-fledged military insurgency.
In their eyes the separatists "did what they have to do" even if that's a byproduct of convincing themselves about it especially after they created many facts and a situation they could not back out from anymore. They had help from kremlin-friendly NGOs and individuals which is why the Russian government could always deflect claims of direct involvement but in the end I believe that the separatists if they had a real strong case for them could have easily established what they wanted if they had waited and followed the correct procedure because as it turns out their propagated fears were over-exaggerated and served merely propaganda effects. They would have got what they wanted but there was a problem: it would not have auto-guaranteed a joining of Russia. They may have been forced to accept staying within Ukraine or becoming de facto independent with the condition of staying independent.

[Marcellus1986]

Worked for US in Syria perfectly! ...so perfectly they had to resort to bombing "their" rebels now.

Way to cherry pick my response, which I shouldn't be surprised at you doing.

You completely ignore the fact that Russia in direct violation of the joint US-Russian-Ukrainian treaty stating that in return for Ukraine giving up nuclear capability Russia would respect Ukraine's sovereignty, invaded Ukrainian territory (Crimea), held an illegal referendum, besieged the military bases of another nation, and is now massing troops and giving heavy weapons support to Pro-Russian separatists in the Eastern Ukraine.

[Morry]

They were offered a referendum after broad public discourse and a constitutional reform including decentralization after a legitimate government was actually elected.

Do you have any proof about such offerings? Because as I heard Kiev was (and still is) very strongle against federalization and decentralization, and only things it offered was "drop your weapons, go out of the seized buildings and go to the trial" (amnistia if you didn't do anything "anticonstitutional").

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is now massing troops and giving heavy weapons support to Pro-Russian separatists in the Eastern Ukraine.

Again, no proofs were given about such claims.

[Mithfin]

Tsarev wasnt their only candidate, Dobkin defended their interest too. And he got 3%.
They were willing to talk in a world where they werent occupying Ukranian soil and thus had to make no compromise. A dreamworld.

See, there is no point to argue. Navalny got what, 25% in the Moscow Mayor elections, yet "no one really supports Navalny and all voices were of bought out traitors", and at the same time "everyone in the eastern Ukraine supports separatists", even if it, apparently, isn't the case. These people are the ultimate masters of their subjective realities - they see only things they want to see and hear only things they want to hear.

[Cybran]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...paratists.html

But Kiev’s use of volunteer paramilitaries to stamp out the Russian-backed Donetsk and Luhansk “people’s republics”, proclaimed in eastern Ukraine in March, should send a shiver down Europe’s spine. Recently formed battalions such as Donbas, Dnipro and Azov, with several thousand men under their command, are officially under the control of the interior ministry but their financing is murky, their training inadequate and their ideology often alarming.

Europe and USA are using neo Nazis to ethnically cleanse Eastern Ukraine, yet the people standing up to the junta are labeled terrorists.

[Marcellus1986]

Do you have any proof about such offerings? Because as I heard Kiev was (and still is) very strongle against federalization and decentralization, and only things it offered was "drop your weapons, go out of the seized buildings and go to the trial" (amnistia if you didn't do anything "anticonstitutional").

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Again, no proofs were given about such claims.

It's hard to hide 70,000+ soldiers on a border with satellites focused on the region. There's also, you know, official news outlets reporting the buildup and video of it as well.

As for heavy weapons support, you have rebel leaders confessing to having heavy weapons systems, and there was a video posted somewhere in the MH-17 crash thread from US intelligence showing apcs and anti-air systems being moved into the Ukraine on flatbed trucks.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...paratists.html



Europe and USA are using neo Nazis to ethnically cleanse Eastern Ukraine, yet the people standing up to the are labeled terrorists.

Lol, you are accusing Europe and the US of genocide with no proof whatsoever. Typical Cybran post.

[malgin]

It's hard to hide 70,000+ soldiers on a border with satellites focused on the region. There's also, you know, official news outlets reporting the buildup and video of it as well.

As for heavy weapons support, you have rebel leaders confessing to having heavy weapons systems, and there was a video posted somewhere in the MH-17 crash thread from US intelligence showing apcs and anti-air systems being moved into the Ukraine on flatbed trucks.

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Lol, you are accusing Europe and the US of genocide with no proof whatsoever. Typical Cybran post.

A typical hypocritical post, lol

[Deleted]

Way to cherry pick my response, which I shouldn't be surprised at you doing.

You completely ignore the fact that Russia in direct violation of the joint US-Russian-Ukrainian treaty stating that in return for Ukraine giving up nuclear capability Russia would respect Ukraine's sovereignty, invaded Ukrainian territory (Crimea), held an illegal referendum, besieged the military bases of another nation, and is now massing troops and giving heavy weapons support to Pro-Russian separatists in the Eastern Ukraine.

So they do.

Here in Latvia for some time we have few regional parts under Putin puppets control (tho, they are starting to lose elections more and more) and they are trying to sink economics, also tried to change constitution and give russian language an official second language status (huge part of those russians still don't know Latvian despite living here for so many years even with free courses/stuff to learn and get citizenship easy peasy). Though, they are failing to achieve anything, but it's so obvious what's going on. Sadly, same happened in Ukraine, but that trick does not work with us and won't work anywhere else now. So they can talk and argument what ever they want there is no doubt of their intentions. Russians just got accustomed that there is always some Tsar. No, we don't want you - russians, if you don't respect our borders, culture and freedom.

[Bakis]

You should read some of Skro's rants about China.

I agree with him in some cases regarding Ukraine. On the whole he and me disagree on almost all things.

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Lol, you are accusing Europe and the US of genocide with no proof whatsoever. Typical Cybran post.

Cybran is a joke. He pop once and twice per day and make some ridiculous claim. Funny since Russia is the undisputed hot spot regarding neo-nazism.

[Ravenblade]

Do you have any proof about such offerings? Because as I heard Kiev was (and still is) very strongle against federalization and decentralization, and only things it offered was "drop your weapons, go out of the seized buildings and go to the trial" (amnistia if you didn't do anything "anticonstitutional").

Well, proof would be for instance Yatseniuk's speech from March 18th. However it doesn't matter anyway because he and his government were seen as weak, corrupt, "fascist junta", "American puppet" and overall illegitimate. They did not recognize anything what they said yet wanted all the same to be heard by them. Federalization was not the demand of the protesters anyway, their main issue was language and culture, something which was de facto granted in order to appease them but this hasn't been enough because organizers behind used these two issues as mere methods to incite the masses. Having something granted which would make the masses happy is not what people requiring vast angry masses need. So they kept up their shrill rhetorics even in the face of reality, since they also knew the interim government was basically just a powerless gap-filler they decided to take matters in their own hand and establish facts before elections could take place and in fact a more legitimate course of procedures could take place. As I hinted: the last thing you want if you have bigger goals is having your supporters being happy with minor milestones. Most of the people living there never really wanted to secede, they would have been happy if they were granted de facto autonomous status in regards of language, culture and even administration, they never really wanted a referendum or having their cities shelled by the Ukrainian army in the end due neverhappies roaming their streets with guns, APCs and captured or other acquired military hardware.

[malgin]

So they do.

Here in Latvia for some time we have few regional parts under Putin puppets control (tho, they are starting to lose elections more and more) and they are trying to sink economics, also tried to change constitution and give russian language an official second language status (huge part of those russians still don't know Latvian despite living here for so many years even with free courses/stuff to learn and get citizenship easy peasy). Though, they are failing to achieve anything, but it's so obvious what's going on. Sadly, same happened in Ukraine, but that trick does not work with us and won't work anywhere else now. So they can talk and argument what ever they want there is no doubt of their intentions. Russians just got accustomed that there is always some Tsar. No, we don't want you - russians, if you don't respect our borders, culture and freedom.

This is the major mistake of Russian foreign politics for several centuries. Tsars, USSR put alot of money, human resourses, gave "colonies" a special status, created new nations, build infrastructure while mainland was under high pressure of taxes.

What we see now? Hate from all over the place That's why the US model was/is superior to Russia. Enslave, destroy, rob the nations with "credits" and even after that everyone is going to love you (or fear doesn't matter).

And as for 'Nigga' (official name of Baltics residents who can't get citizenship) why they should learn language if they are in their 50-60-70s? Even in your beloved America people who are in the age could pass the exam with translator.

[Deleted]

This is the major mistake of Russian foreign politics for several centuries. Tsars, USSR put alot of money, human resourses, gave "colonies" a special status, created new nations, build infrastructure while mainland was under high pressure of taxes.

What we see now? Hate from all over the place That's why the US model was/is superior to Russia. Enslave, destroy, rob the nations with "credits" and even after that everyone is going to love you (or fear doesn't matter).

Lies! Latvia had super growth before WW2, incoming russian tanks was the worst thing that happened to Latvia. My familiy was sent to siberia, socially pressured from USSR and great households destroyed - which now are just empty plains with ruins. Latvia still tries to regain it's culture and stability.

Dude, you can tell those fairy tail stories to more distant countries like US ect. But if you think bulls**ting will work on countries that live exactly near russia, then you've mistaken.

[Shalcker]

Way to cherry pick my response, which I shouldn't be surprised at you doing.

Well, i do not discount possibility of Russia bombing those rebels eventually.

I just want to point out that this approach is not unique. Got to copy what West does to be more like them!

You completely ignore the fact that Russia in direct violation of the joint US-Russian-Ukrainian treaty stating that in return for Ukraine giving up nuclear capability Russia would respect Ukraine's sovereignty, invaded Ukrainian territory (Crimea), held an illegal referendum, besieged the military bases of another nation, and is now massing troops and giving heavy weapons support to Pro-Russian separatists in the Eastern Ukraine.

Principles of sovereignty are not tied to treaties, and Ukraine still has their sovereignty too.

What was applied in case of Crimea is right of self-determination, which DOES trump principles of sovereignty as we've seen in case of Kosovo.

The rest of your arguments are pure propaganda that i would prefer to skip as it was discussed to death here and in previous thread.

[Ausr]

Well, i do not discount possibility of Russia bombing those rebels eventually.

I just want to point out that this approach is not unique. Got to copy what West does to be more like them!

Principles of sovereignty are not tied to treaties, and Ukraine still has their sovereignty too.

What was applied in case of Crimea is right of self-determination, which DOES trump principles of sovereignty as we've seen in case of Kosovo.

The rest of your arguments are pure propaganda that i would prefer to skip as it was discussed to death here and in previous thread.

Blinders, engage!