Totems - Why do we actually have them?

[vykas]

I will admit I haven't been playing a Shaman for as long as some of the regular posters here. But I, too, have grappled with this totem question.

It seems to me that people seem to have the least amount of problem with our totems when they are pure utility. The complaint comes when a portion of our dps is tied to the totems. It's the dps totems that feel most clunky/boring because for the most part they are. Set-and-forget--but be in range else waste that GCD.

Make Searing totem a spec-specific utility totem and add the 1 to 2% damage it contributes to something else. Or just do something to it. Unleash our Elementals. Let them be summoned guardians not be tied to a totem. Or if they have to be, have Totemic Persistence baseline.

That's just my two cents on the issue, but I am truly interested in this discussion.

[Tuor]

I know some of them look cool, but seriously, what's the point of having them?

Can't answer for the other people... But for me, totems are part of being a shaman, and aswell, the only reason i started rolling one back in wrath day's... But offcourse, back then you actaully had to use all of your totems and spam them all the time, and that was i gaved me fun, the shaman's unique feeling, that unique feeling that no other class had... It was unique, and not like today.

You can argue that totems are just sticks, and they are, the fun was in managing those sticks, a feeling that as it seems, most shaman didn't apreciated. I'm not a fan of artwork myself... And you can see it on my other posts, still, when you ask why not just remove them and implement totems just as regular spells i have to say that the unique feeling of being rolling a shaman would be lost.

You use fire elemental as an example... You forgeting aswell that the point of a fire elemental is actually force other players to remind (PvP wise) that in order to kill the elemental they have to attack the stick and not the elemental itself...

[Natrii]

I like the flavor they add to the class, though i miss the old totems...Totemtwisting or GTFO :P

[Deleted]

Aint totems short duration CD's now? I bearly use them on my Ench shammy, with the only persistant one being searing.

I like the way they currently are, even more so since Blizz rolled the passive strength/spelldmg into aura's from the shammy itself.

The only change id do, would be to increase the duration of searing and the range on the elemental totems a small amount.
For raiding i havnt had any issues at all with how the totems currently work.

For PvP i like the idea of "if you fight me at my sticks, ill fuck you up" at the very least they have to untarget you to stop a powerful effect, the stun being one.

[LTCrystallite]

Ahh, totems. There's a looooong history of the drawbacks of totems.

I like the idea of totems being destroyable but group oriented or easy to drop, as long as that's the tradeoff to them being immobile, killable sticks in the ground. I also don't mind them being affected by silences/interrupts, as long as there isn't endless crowd control in the game already (which there totally is).

From what I know so far about WoD, Searing Totem is getting massively buffed and becoming more core of a damage source, and the toning down of CC and instant casts in general should reduce some of the impact totems feel in general.

Personally, we don't need Cap Totem. I'd rather see Earthgrab become Elemental only again, Frozen Power becoming Enhancement only again, and the Windwalk Totem talent row being counter CC, freedom of movement (windwalk) or environmental hazards like the scrapped Repulsion Totem idea that halts movement past the totem range until destroyed or duration ends.

Cap Totem is poorly designed and is another reason we should get a better toolkit. It needs to die.

[nosebone]

Not exactly saying "remove" them, but make the ones we already have more purposeful, and less of a hindrance to our game-play. I don't trust Blizzard enough to add more totems yet, I mean, look at Capacitor Totem.

yes, capacitor totem can be frustrating but nothing makes me feel more awesome than a well placed, well timed, unglyphed capacitor totem. especially when it helps me get the kill. I love it. I cackle with joy.

pve is just drop fire and forget. pvp uses all your totems and is what makes shamans a blast to play for me.

[LTCrystallite]

yes, capacitor totem can be frustrating but nothing makes me feel more awesome than a well placed, well timed, unglyphed capacitor totem. especially when it helps me get the kill. I love it. I cackle with joy.

pve is just drop fire and forget. pvp uses all your totems and is what makes shamans a blast to play for me.

I can see Cap Totem being useful when you have a partner that already controls your opponents, but then /See: diminishing returns.

It has a 5 second delay and a wonky lightning animation that shows you exactly what it is. It's also only an 8 yard radius and 5 hit points. When you DO land it, the stun is dispellable. I'm glad you enjoy hitting Cap Totems, but in my eyes it's still a really bad design. It's not reliable.

[Murderdoll]

pve is just drop fire and forget..

I wish.

This tier has many instances where your totems can and will be destroyed.

Dark Shamans for example. A misplaced Ashen Wall or if you forgot to project the totem all the way to the back. Good bye Elemental totem and if youre specced PE, half your DPS.

[Omanley]

That's precisely the point, and no one seems to understand it. Shamans easily have the most utility in the game at the moment. They bring three buffs in a single class, very high burst DPS as both Enhance and Elemental, while also holding utility such as the absorb totem, Earthgrab/bind, Lust, Ghost Wolf, AND a passive buff for their weapons which increases their ability to do their job in any spec.

Tying their utility to Totems was the only way to keep Shamans balanced. If I randomly shot off Searing Totem shots while running around, I'd be too good at kiting as Enhancement. If I could clease all fear effects in my party by hitting a cooldown, there would be no reason to (no pun intended) fear it. If I could heal and deal damage and bring buffs and bring utility with no downside, then WHY WOULD SOMEONE NOT PLAY A SHAMAN?

Totems are meant to be a hinderance in gameplay. A hinderance Shaman kind of need considering everything we bring to a party.

Wrong on so many points. Totem drawbacks were around long before imbues were designed for every spec, or bloodlust was around. Furthermore imbues are nothing more than a percentage of our dps/hps, like a rogues' poison. Claiming them as utility is laughable. Also, bloostlust is banned in arenas (dunno about rbg).
High burst for ele will be close to impossible due to returning to turret-style. As enh there's a big nerf to Ascendence and likely also FET incoming, so enh burst will also take a beating. Shamans provide three raid buffs, but are not the only ones capable of doing so, afaik, not mentioning that the spellpower buff enh provides is useless for the enh player himself.
So your point about pvp utility basically comes down to SBT (which requires a talent) and GW (which is rather weak).

You're right though in that tying our utility to totems WAS the only way to keep shamans balanced. Was as in, vanilla/tbc. Kiting with Searing? Lol? And tremor had no cooldown up till early cata, and still shamans weren't overpowered. The reason for that was that the old wasn't usable during fear, in other words; you could destroy tremor and then fear. It was about clever totem stomping and fearing, and timed replacing on the shamans' part. It wasn't a particular fun gameplay experience to continually replant tremor to prevent fears, but at least it was something uniquely good.
Now how would you justify tremor being destroyable still, as a 1m cd? 6s duration doesn't make it much attractive as a target anway, but what's the reason to keep that? Or why would it be needed to keep us balanced?

Totems are cooldowns now. THAT'S their drawback to keep them balanced. They are only up for a very short duration, like every other's cooldowns. Like every other's cooldowns, they need to be reliable during that brief moment. Well, they aren't, for the most part. For the most part other classes, like rogues, have a big cd toolkit consisting of abilities without a single drawback aside from, well, being cooldowns instead of passives. No one's even asking for totems without ANY drawbacks, just a toning down of those.

Totem's aren't meant to be a hindrance. They are meant to be a vast array of unique utility, held in check by those drawbacks.
-vast? we lost a lot of totems over the years, so not so much anymore
-unique? hardly. removal of cleansing, sentry or windwall, not introducing repulsion totem and changes to grounding and tremor ensure totems will remain as homogenisized, mostly inferior versions (in terms of pure effects) of comparable abilities, plus totem weaknesses on top.

Totems represent a big part of our arsenal and the most central aspect mechanics-wise of the shaman class. If you ask people of aspects related to shamans, surely totems are among the top 5. Something so iconic to be intended to be nothing more than a weakness can only be the case if there is a deep-rooted grudge on the dev part.

[Mithgroth]

Tying their utility to Totems was the only way to keep Shamans balanced. If I randomly shot off Searing Totem shots while running around, I'd be too good at kiting as Enhancement. If I could clease all fear effects in my party by hitting a cooldown, there would be no reason to (no pun intended) fear it. If I could heal and deal damage and bring buffs and bring utility with no downside, then WHY WOULD SOMEONE NOT PLAY A SHAMAN?

Totems are meant to be a hinderance in gameplay. A hinderance Shaman kind of need considering everything we bring to a party.

There are other classes who can heal, deal damage, bring buffs and utility at the same time with no particular downside.

After the homogenization, I can't say I agree that we bring more than anyone else to the table. Actually because that was the whole point of the homogenization. Everyone does equalish activity, and unique buffs were given to other classes to prevent another Sunwell. Also we already pay that price by having them in seperate spell schools. If you Earthbind, you can't Tremor. You can't have all your utility up at the same time, that's the cost.

It feels like paying phone bill where you don't even have one. The perk is gone, but the drawback stands. It's not just.

[Blithe]

Note: this list consists of the totems we will have in Warlords, but the descriptions are my suggestions that should be done to them.

Baseline:
Searing Totem - Re-worked and given a Healing Stream-like mechanic. 15 sec duration, 30 sec cooldown.
Earthbind Totem - Duration reduced to 10 sec down from 20 sec, and cooldown reduced to 20 (or 25) sec down from 30 sec.
Healing Stream Totem - Nothing to be changed. Fine as is.
Grounding Totem - Nothing to be changed. Fine as is.
Tremor Totem - Nothing to be changed. Fine as is.
Earth Elemental Totem - Should not be tied to a totem, and instead be summon-able. 1 minute rule would still apply.
Capacitor Totem - Should be re-worked or removed.
Fire Elemental Totem - Should not be tied to a totem, and instead be summon-able. 1 minute rule would still apply.

Spec-specific:
Mana Tide Totem - Nothing to be changed. Fine as is.
Healing Tide Totem - Nothing to be changed. Fine as is.
Spirit Link Totem - Nothing to be changed. Fine as is.
Magma Totem - Removed. No longer serves its purpose.

Talented:
Stonebulwark Totem - Is no longer a totem, and instead an instant cast absorption spell.
Earthgrab Totem - Nothing to be changed. Fine as is.
Windwalk Totem - Nothing to be changed. Fine as is.

I feel Totems fit the short duration, short cooldown sort of rule, with exceptions like Temor Totem and Windwalk Totem (being 6 second duration, 1 minute cooldown). Abilities such as Stone Bulwark Totem and Earthbind Totem work to impede this, by lasting a whopping 20 to 30 seconds.

[Lavindar]

Note: this list consists of the totems we will have in Warlords.

I think you should edit your post to leave it clear this is your suggestions, it looks like your are just listing the totems.

Anyway, agree with most of what you said, I would only keep the Elementals and Bulwark being totems, put after using the totems they would go out after some seconds, and the Elementals and the absorb effect would remain. Just to keep the flavor of the totems.

[Protoman]

Why shamans' unique ability to summon totems is a drawback? The usual way, having it as a spell is way better.
I'm asking sincerely, can anyone tell me one good gameplay advantage of totems?

I know some of them look cool, but seriously, what's the point of having them?
I'm sorry to roll another "totomz!!1" thread, but it really made me thinking.

I will tell you EXACTLY what the design philosophy was of totems in the past, how they USED to have advantages, but because of changes in the last 2 xpacs they have lost them all and are basically inferior in all aspects.

Totems in the past were cheap to use, has zero or low cd, and many different totems with various uses. Obviously we had buff totems, and alot of unique buffs plus many shared buffs... most buffs of any class. The longest totem cd was 15 sec. We had lots of unique or rare effects, like grounding, ebind, cleansing, and tremor totems.

Their disadvantages were stationary, low HP, and trading buffs for utility. These disadvantages were balanced because we could easily replace a totem when it was killed, and most of its effects came early on (like cleansing, or ebind snare right away) so even if killed it wasn't a huge loss.

Now totems have much longer CD's which SHOULD mean they deserve more HP (atleast 10%HP IMO). They also have longer durations instead of frontloading their effects, so stoneclaw giving a shield right away meant you could replace it soon after with another earth totem like tremor. But now you have to keep stone bulwark up for 30 sec to get its full effect which locks you out of other earth totems for a while. Greater Elemental totems were rarely used in PVP (or PVE) before, but now are important and they ALSO lock us out of using other totems for an extended duration.

This is the problem with the new totem system. We used to have short cd/short duration totems, but with longer durations and CD's it means we are locked out of using other totems. We also have alot less totems, especially unique and powerful ones. They still retain all their disadvantages, with no changes to decrease the disadvantages or give them new advantages.

Totem design is outdated. They need to take a look at totems, and design them from the ground up with the current perspective they have regarding design balance. They need to rethink the limitations and disadvantages, because right now they are inferior in every way compared to similar spell from another class.

A baseline Totem Projection should be given, as it helps get over the positioning and stationary aspect of totems. They should also consider just removing the whole "one totem per element" philosophy because its not as important anymore as it was when we had to choose buffs vs utility. We should be able to use something like Capacitor totem plus grounding totem to protect it from an attack to give it a greater chance of going off..... or if we have our Earth Elemental totem out we should be able to use tremor if feared, or earthbind to slow enemies while the Elemental is still doing its attacks.

Obviously what I'm getting at is removing the totem talents from T45. Totems are not an integral part of shaman, atleast not important enough to devote a whole talent tier to. To me it seems like the devs view totems as important as a resource. Some classes have talents based on their resource like pallys with holy power, DK's with runes/rp, or monks with chi..... but totems don't fit into that category. They are like glorified hunter traps and should not have a talent tier, just talents and passives as a baseline part of the Shaman class that make them easier and more effective to use. The T45 talent tier should have mobility talents, because THAT is what shaman really need some options for.

[Deleted]

I really wish we'd get back to "constant effect, not having to drop them all the time" totems.

The completely absurd homogenization really hurt the game from my perspective.

[Kazlofski]

Maybe I am outdated and it's not in the rotation anymore... But I always found Searing totem a nuisance as part of Ele rotation...

[paror]

Maybe I am outdated and it's not in the rotation anymore... But I always found Searing totem a nuisance as part of Ele rotation...

This. I hate the fucking searing totem so much. If that fucker goes I am playing ele. If not, hell no

[Protoman]

Maybe I am outdated and it's not in the rotation anymore... But I always found Searing totem a nuisance as part of Ele rotation...

Why is that? They are easy to use and have no CD, searing for single and magma for aoe. They actually make sense and with a long duration its only a gcd every so often. I think the fire totems make sense and the only totems we should have to actually use in every fight, I just don't like mechanics that relied on them such as Searing Flames (which they removed I think... atleast they better have).

Our totems in general have been greatly reduced, but for the most part their functions are useful. It's just the limitations that bother me as they no longer make sense with the current totem design and gameplay. With certain totems having much longer durations and CD's we can't just have totem A out, switch to totem B when a certain situation requires totem B, and then switch back to totem A again. To get the full potency of something like SBT or HST you need to have it out for the full 30 sec which locks you out of other totems in the same element. This is even more frustrating with Earth Ele (esp Primal Earth Ele), as you can't use other important earth utility totems like ebind or tremor.

It doesn't make sense for us to talent for a stronger Earth Ele, but then to utilize it we have to restrict ourselves of other important utility that we rely on in PVP. They should all be available. In PVP our grounding totem plays an important part to protect from spells as well as shield our totems from a direct hit by spell.... but many of our highest threat totems are also Air such as Capacitor or Spirit Link Totems. That just doesn't make sense as using grounding totem to shield those totems from an instant spell attack would be considered smart use of totems, increasing skill cap, but is impossible with the current design. For this reason, Grounding should be able to be used regardless of other Air totems.

Here is what totems need:

-Totemic Projection baseline (like trap launcher, a way to utilize our totems properly)
-All Totems have 10%HP, certain totems have 15%HP (MTT, HTT, SLT)
-Greater Elemental totems are not tied to totems, their max range is tied to the player, and if they still drop a totem when summoned should be like 25-30%HP
-Totems not restricted to 1 of each element anymore, or just make Totemic Persistence baseline as well.


They should make L45 talent tier mobility based, not totem based. (The most boring talent tier of any class, it makes no sense considering how limited totems are, while mobility is greatly needed)

Here are my ideas for that mobility tier:

-The Imp GW Glyph (reduced snare effect) would be added to GW baseline. This is our basic mobility tool and needs the glyph to even be worth using in PVP. Not many people know this but the "freedom effect/reduced snare effect" the glyph gives was originally a baseline part of GW in older xpacs like wotlk, and you talented for Ancestral Swiftness in tier 2 of Enhance tree for "15% run speed plus no cast time on GW". This was something ALL PVP Shaman (and even alot of PVE Shaman) would spec for as it only cost 7 talent points and the points you spent benefit all 3 specs. There was no real sacrifice, while now with only 3 glyph slots it costs much more to get.

Talents for L45 Tier:
1: Improve base run speed by 15% at all times. GW gives a short sprint with 30-45 sec icd.
2: ULE gives a short sprint for 4-5 sec which also reduces snare effect for duration. Can cast while moving during sprint.
3: "Astral Leap" - 25 sec CD - New spell, leap thru astral plane to land next to targeted ally or enemy and causes next direct attack toward you to miss.




With Totemic Projection and Persistence baseline, there isn't really a need to make CotE baseline also and can just be removed.... but if I were to consider it then I would give CotE a 5 min CD, sorta like DK's "Empower Rune Weapon", so it can only be used rarely as a quick totem CD reset.



I view my suggestions as much needed updates to old and outdated mechanics and design philosophies. Many Shaman feel we are "an expansion behind" and need a proper update, and I agree with them. This is what is needed to bring us in line with other classes. From my perspective, Shaman are updated with small changes here and there but not looking at the whole picture. If they make these changes or even something similar, I would consider Shaman in a very good place and happy with their design (with the remaining exception being Enhancement AoE, which I still feel is awful and clunky).

[Aleksej89]

Totems make sense in Lore.

Totems make no sense in terms of Gameplay.

All totems should have a minimum of 15% of Shaman's health, which should be Glyph-able to 30% of shaman's health.

All elemental (monster) summoning totems should have as much health as the Elemental itself.

[Blithe]

SNIP

I agree with just about everything you said, apart from Searing/Magma Totem, which I find don't fit the current Totem philosophy, and are more annoying than anything. I also don't agree with Unleash Elements talent. As it stands, the one we receive from our perk is useless as we already have Ghost Wolf, they're literally the same mechanics why implement something so redundant? I think it'd be better to replace that with a talent that increases your run speed by 45% for 3 sec whenever you use a Shock spell (like Long Arm of the Law but for Shocks).

Other than that, I agree.

[Nebria]

I also don't agree with Unleash Elements talent. As it stands, the one we receive from our perk is useless as we already have Ghost Wolf, they're literally the same mechanics why implement something so redundant? I think it'd be better to replace that with a talent that increases your run speed by 45% for 3 sec whenever you use a Shock spell (like Long Arm of the Law but for Shocks).

it is not the same. it has the same effect, you get an increased run speed, but ghostwolf will silence you, unleash ue won't. so you can still use totems or instants while moving. I think that is a BIG difference. it is not just about the speed value.