Violence against men, feminism, and how men respond

[Deleted]

So, I'm sure everyone has seen, or at least heard of the scuffle between Jay Z and Solange recently in a lift, the video of which was released by TMZ.

Just read a really good article about the whole thing, thought I'd share, since violence against men doesn't get discussed as often as it should, and when things like this happen they mostly get ignored. I'll admit that when I saw the video, my first reaction (like the person who wrote the article) was "I wonder what Jay Z did to make her do that?" though you just know (I mean, it's me, and it's Jay Z, i'd have been all over that) if it was the other way round and it was Jay Z who hit her, he'd never release another song again. The article also discusses how Jay Z reacted to the violence in the best way possible which I think is really cool. I don't have a lot of respect for Jay Z but I'm very happy to see he didn't just stand there and take it, or hit her back. Also, this is a casual reminder to the people who think feminism is all about never discussing the bad shit that happens to guys that often feminism DOES discuss these things, you just don't hear about when they do, becuase that isn't as headline grabbing as "Crazy feminist thinks all men should be herded into pens like livestock"

So without further ado, here's the article: http://www.crunkfeministcollective.c...lange-jay-bey/

Earlier this week, TMZ released the now infamous elevator video of Solange going HAM on Jay Z. The responses have been swift and the memes have been hilarious. I’m a let y’all finish but, there are a few things missing from the conversation.

First of all, Solange was dead wrong. Now don’t get me wrong, I am a huge Solange fan. She’s my favorite little sister in the history of celebrity little sisters. I’ve always appreciated her spunk and her fighter spirit. Real talk, I always liked that there was a possibility that she might haul off and slap somebody. Hell, I might haul off and slap somebody, so I appreciated that connection. However as a feminist, the fact that she actually did haul off and slap somebody, namely Jay Z, is not okay. I, like most feminist, am against relational violence in all its forms and if we are to take a serious stance against relational violence, we have to be more diligent about finding it in unexpected places and amongst unusual suspects. Now I get that this doesn’t look the way that relational violence normally looks so it may be harder to identify it. But, the truth of the matter is that sometimes women are violent. Violence isn’t always a man hitting a woman or even a man hitting another man. Relational violence isn’t always with someone who you are in an intimate relationship with. It can take many forms. Brothers and sisters fight, mothers and daughters fight, cousins fight and in this case in-laws were fighting (well Solange was). The point is, this is a moment of relational violence and we have to see it as such.

We also need to be really careful about our reactions to this video. When I saw the video my initial response was “yo, what the hell is going on?” The very next thing I said was, “what did Jay do to make Solange wild out like that?!” and that is where I was wrong. Wondering what was going on in the situation is a normal response for any nosey ass person like myself. Wondering what Jay did to elicit such a response is where I was not being a very good feminist. That is nothing less than victim blaming and I know better than that. Nothing Jay did justifies her putting her hands on him. She is responsible for how she reacts to every situation. There were a myriad of possibilities available to her. She chose to act violently and that is not ok.

The second point I want to make is that Jay Z actually exemplifies what a man defending himself from the attacks of a woman can look like. After Chris Brown assaulted Rihanna, many men came to his defense and justified his attack by saying, “if she comes at me like a man, I’m a beat her down like man.” This language works to equate physical attacks on men to attacks on masculinity and therefore, evokes a hypermasculine response to such attacks. Now, we know that masculinity is fragile as hell but, I do think this actually does a disservice to men by making them seem like flat, uncomplicated beings who have to respond in such demeaning ways. What Jay Z showed is that it actually doesn’t take all that for a man to stop a woman from attacking him. He too had a myriad of choices available to him. He chose to block his body, grab her foot and put it down, and push her back from his personal space. Let me be clear is saying that this was not an example of him turning the other cheek. What it is an example of is someone who did not feel the need to defend his masculinity in a way that pulled him into participation.

My third and final point is about the Queen Bey. Now y’all can say what y’all want about her seeming lack of participation in the fight, but what I saw Beyonce doing was exemplifying some of the core tenets of black feminism 101—self-care and self-definition. First, let me say that Beyonce’s response felt very familiar to me. As a child, my older brother and I would throw down fighting while mother calmly read the newspaper, painted her nails, did her makeup, etc. When we would come rolling by her she would quietly move her feet out of the way and continue to mind her damn business. Now, we did get reprimanded after we finished the fight, but she gave no fucks during throw down. And you know why? Because, breaking up other people’s shit is fucking exhausting! Not breaking up other people’s shit is self-care! Additionally, the conversation about where her loyalties lie is nothing more than our desires to define Beyonce. But let me remind us that black feminism demands that we allow people to be self-definitional. That means that Beyonce gets to not choose sides and that’s ok. Beyonce gets to define herself, define her boundaries, and define when and where she enters. Y’all can say that smile she was rocking when she got off the elevator was her trying to look perfect all the time, but that looks like a self-care/self-defining smile to me!

So, I’m not going to suggest that you stop participating in the hoopla. Hell, I’m about to search some gossip sites as soon as I finish this post. I’m just asking that we don’t throw away our feminism while we do so. Happy hunting!

[Deleted]

Do we need ANOTHER one of these threads?

I don't know who either of those people are but I really don't think we should be looking into celebrity culture to find our answers, define gender roles/relations and develop new theories.

[Deleted]

I've been keeping track of this, and whilst public conversation on violence against men has occurred; Multiple articles have also suggested he deserved it, or it should be kept private ergo ignored.

Violence against both women and men is a core tenet in feminism, but many people fail to understand that due to the facade raised by redpillers that feminism is purely for women and not men.

Jay Z would of been perfectly entitled to defend himself from her, but instead he opt'd not too and took it while his wife stood back; That dynamic to me seems pretty fucked up.

I don't celebrate violence as a default reactionary measure, but i'm saying in this example he would of been completely justified to push her away or restrain her.

[Deleted]

Jay Z would of been perfectly entitled to defend himself from her, but instead he opt'd not too and took it while his wife stood back; That dynamic to me seems pretty fucked up.

I don't celebrate violence as a default reactionary measure, but i'm saying in this example he would of been completely justified to push her away or restrain her.

That's the thing though, he didn't just take it. "He too had a myriad of choices available to him. He chose to block his body, grab her foot and put it down, and push her back from his personal space. Let me be clear is saying that this was not an example of him turning the other cheek."

[Deleted]

That's the thing though, he didn't just take it. "He too had a myriad of choices available to him. He chose to block his body, grab her foot and put it down, and push her back from his personal space. Let me be clear is saying that this was not an example of him turning the other cheek."

Perhaps our definition of "Just take it" is different.

To me, unless he explicitly defended himself in the form of restraining or pushing her away that's taking it; To me it seems like he pushed her foot away when she repeatedly kicked him and attempted to physically harm him further, i can't see him grabbing her and pushing her away physically either.

At best, that's a half hearted attempt to prevent serious injury; To me, he took it whilst his wife looked on.

[Stelio Kontos]

That's the thing though, he didn't just take it. "He too had a myriad of choices available to him. He chose to block his body, grab her foot and put it down, and push her back from his personal space. Let me be clear is saying that this was not an example of him turning the other cheek."

It was the bare minimum of self-defense. Which is fine, really, I'm not one of those guys who thinks that the moment a woman gets violent it's alright to go apeshit on her like it's a back-alley fight. But it was the bare minimum.

Also, nice dig about masculinity being fragile.

[Deleted]

Watching it, he pretty much did take it without reacting; His bodyguard sheltered him from the kicks and punches and slaps, he at most halfheartedly pushed away her leg.

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

I feel dumber reading that.

Chris Brown didn't have any body guards.

You can't really compare the two and I am pretty positive if it was just Jay-Z and what ever that skanks name is, were alone and she tried to pull that shit, the result would be closer to Chris Brown.

[Stelio Kontos]

It does make me wonder how any other hip hop star would have handled that same situation.

DMX?

Ice Cube?

[Deleted]

It does make me wonder how any other hip hop star would have handled that same situation.

DMX?

Ice Cube?

Something along the lines of popping a cap in a nigga's ass whilst snorting some substance i believe.

[Muzjhath]

The girl is 2/3rds his size. He doesn't need to do more. He makes sure he takes minimum damage and stops her more agressive attacks.
Solid self defense 9/10. Maybe he should have tried to restrain her better, but would likely have suffered more damage then and his aim seems in the video to be minimum self damage. He likely knows that if he wants he can drop the smaller fighter easily. Or go more agressive and restrain and take her down himself.
He chooses to go with the far smarter route (more so on family relations) of minimize of selfdamage.

[Deleted]

I feel dumber reading that.

Chris Brown didn't have any body guards.

You can't really compare the two and I am pretty positive if it was just Jay-Z and what ever that skanks name is where alone and she tried to pull that shit, the result would be closer to Chris Brown.

Well this is the thing, i don't think i'd ever pull a punch on a woman, it's sexist of me but i'd be scared of hurting them; Instead i'd opt to push them away, or restrain them at most.

The only scenario i could envision actually inflicting harm would be if they're armed.

[Deleted]

It was the bare minimum of self-defense. Which is fine, really, I'm not one of those guys who thinks that the moment a woman gets violent it's alright to go apeshit on her like it's a back-alley fight. But it was the bare minimum.

Also, nice dig about masculinity being fragile.

It's not a dig, and if you take it as a dig I think you need to reevaluate your views on masculinity. Masculinity isn't about being ultra strong and never getting hurt or upset. Sometimes it's about that, if you want it to be. Other times it's about recognizing the frailty inherent in all of us, and being okay with that. Other times it's about being a loving father or a loving husband. It can be about protecting those you love from harm, but it can also be about being heartbroken and upset when harm comes to those you love, or to you. It can be a whole bunch of things depending on who you are, but what it isn't is being invincible at all times and nothing else. Everything is fragile. masculinity, femininity... whatever. It's not a dig to recognise that these things are fragile and that our perception of them can be easilly warped or shattered.

It's like that thread that was going around about what represents masculinity to you, and like, to me, it's Mordin from mass effect, if you've played it. Probably up there with one of the most fragile baddass men of all time. I don't think you could argue that he's not masculine... He's responsible, he relentlessly persues what he thinks is right, cares a great deal for others, always owns his mistakes, he can be strong when he needs to be, but he's also physically very fragile, really kind of tormented about things that he's done, and isn't afraid to show it when confronted with those things. I don't think you can get a more shining example of masculinity, and a better example of it's fragility without that fragility being an inherently bad thing.

[Velaniz]

Watching it, he pretty much did take it without reacting; His bodyguard sheltered him from the kicks and punches and slaps, he at most halfheartedly pushed away her leg.

Jay-z himself took it really well. I'm surprised she wasn't restrained more harshly by his bodyguard (pinned down or something) when it became obvious that she was doing her utmost to continue hitting him in some way even while restrained.

Edit:

It's sexist for him to hit her in defence
It's sexist for him to be scared to hit her because she's smaller than him
It's sexist for her to let her have her way with him
It's sexist for him to restrain her because he's in her personal space
It's not right for him to stand there and take it because it's an insult to his masculinity


These are just core examples about why Feminists over-think situations with the sole intention of starting an argument, why the fuck does anyone need to write an article about this? "She attacked him, he let his body guard restrain her" what more do you need? Typing shit like "Oh he didn't fight back therefore his masculinity was at stake" is just dumb.

Feminism used to be a cause worth fighting for, but the more I read about it in civilized countries the more it just comes across as bitchy nitpicking with the sole intention to cause an argument and cry about it.

And "Black Feminist" who gives a fuck what race you are? Seriously lol.

Edit: Oh and OP... It was a dig at masculinity being fragile, otherwise why does it need to be mentioned? Feminism really pisses me off :x

After actually reading the article, yeah, the author does do an annoying job trying to tell men what kind of masculinity they should hold themselves to. It reads like it has an agenda, and comes off like it would condemn anything more than mere restraint (even though it would've been thoroughly justified).

[Deleted]

It's sexist for him to hit her in defence
It's sexist for him to be scared to hit her because she's smaller than him
It's sexist for her to let her have her way with him
It's sexist for him to restrain her because he's in her personal space
It's not right for him to stand there and take it because it's an insult to his masculinity


These are just core examples about why Feminists over-think situations with the sole intention of starting an argument, why the fuck does anyone need to write an article about this? "She attacked him, he let his body guard restrain her" what more do you need? Typing shit like "Oh he didn't fight back therefore his masculinity was at stake" is just dumb.

Feminism used to be a cause worth fighting for, but the more I read about it in civilized countries the more it just comes across as bitchy nitpicking with the sole intention to cause an argument and cry about it.

And "Black Feminist" who gives a fuck what race you are? Seriously lol.

Edit: Oh and OP... It was a dig at masculinity being fragile, otherwise why does it need to be mentioned? Feminism really pisses me off :x

[Stelio Kontos]

It's not a dig, and if you take it as a dig I think you need to reevaluate your views on masculinity. Masculinity isn't about being ultra strong and never getting hurt or upset. Sometimes it's about that, if you want it to be. Other times it's about recognizing the frailty inherent in all of us, and being okay with that. Other times it's about being a loving father or a loving husband. It can be about protecting those you love from harm, but it can also be about being heartbroken and upset when harm comes to those you love, or to you. It can be a whole bunch of things depending on who you are, but what it isn't is being invincible at all times and nothing else. Everything is fragile. masculinity, femininity... whatever. It's not a dig to recognise that these things are fragile and that our perception of them can be easilly warped or shattered.

It's like that thread that was going around about what represents masculinity to you, and like, to me, it's Mordin from mass effect, if you've played it. Probably up there with one of the most fragile baddass men of all time. I don't think you could argue that he's not masculine... He's responsible, he relentlessly persues what he thinks is right, cares a great deal for others, always owns his mistakes, he can be strong when he needs to be, but he's also physically very fragile, really kind of tormented about things that he's done, and isn't afraid to show it when confronted with those things. I don't think you can get a more shining example of masculinity, and a better example of it's fragility without that fragility being an inherently bad thing.

Morden was masculine in his own way, but no more than Shepard, Wrex, or Garrus in my view.

And your point about everyone being fragile is one thing, but the context the blog-writer wrote seemed more like a dig as a sense of masculinity she personally disagrees with.

[Sainur]

This shit again?

[Deleted]

Jay-z himself took it really well. I'm surprised she wasn't restrained more harshly by his bodyguard (pinned down or something) when it became obvious that she was doing her utmost to continue hitting him in some way even while restrained.

I think the bodyguard was attempting to calm her down whilst sheltering Jay Z with his body, at least i can definitely see his mouth moving and him taking the blows; He also stopped the lift to prevent the fight from spilling out, which was pretty quick thinking by him.

But from a guy who stabbed someone, that was some good restraint.

[Deleted]

Do we need ANOTHER one of these threads?

I don't know who either of those people are but I really don't think we should be looking into celebrity culture to find our answers, define gender roles/relations and develop new theories.

I'm sorry, but if you really have no idea who Jay Z or Beyonce are (I'll admit, I had no idea who her sister was) you cannot have watched ANY news program, read ANY newspaper or even been ANYWHERE on the Internet other than MMO-champion in what, the last 10 years?

I understand it's "edgy" to say "who are they, why should I care?" but seriously I guess you've never heard of Justin Bieber either???... I am not a fan of any of their music (especially Bieber!), but my god I do not live in a cave with no access to WiFi so I have an awareness of who they all are...

[Stelio Kontos]

I think the bodyguard was attempting to calm her down whilst sheltering Jay Z with his body, at least i can definitely see his mouth moving and him taking the blows; He also stopped the lift to prevent the fight from spilling out, which was pretty quick thinking by him.

But from a guy who stabbed someone, that was some good restraint.

I didn't see the video, but if it was the bodyguard that stopped the elevator, it doesn't surprise me. A good personal security professional isn't just strong or capable in a fight, but also quick-thinking.