[6.0] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Biomega]

I actually used Power Infusion for early Butcher progression - just so that it would appear as though I didn't suck quite as much on early wipes - where everyone else is opening hard with all their cooldowns+lust (because my guild was lusting the pull initially).

So ya, that fear of being sat for low pull DPS was definitely real.

Thank you for providing yet another example where presumably smart, experienced raiders are completely blinded by superficial damage numbers, instead of thinking in-depth about the issue (like, you know, the last 20% of a boss or whatever). It's a trend I've been seeing only far too much lately...

[Yvaelle]

Thank you for providing yet another example where presumably smart, experienced raiders are completely blinded by superficial damage numbers, instead of thinking in-depth about the issue (like, you know, the last 20% of a boss or whatever). It's a trend I've been seeing only far too much lately...

It's not that at all, we know exactly what we're doing - we're pushed to make choices like this because that's what guilds (even good guilds) use to metric their players. So even though everyone knows Spriests should be at 50k on a Butcher pull, when an Arc Mage is at like 120k - that still impacts their decision on who to sit.

[Biomega]

I'm not sure I follow. Surely your metric would be performance throughout the fight, and people would understand the class mechanics limiting that? How would pushing people into sub-par talent choices just so they get higher meter numbers result in an actual raid benefit? Isn't that completely illusory?

[Yvaelle]

I'm not sure I follow. Surely your metric would be performance throughout the fight, and people would understand the class mechanics limiting that? How would pushing people into sub-par talent choices just so they get higher meter numbers result in an actual raid benefit? Isn't that completely illusory?

Early progression on a boss like butcher isn't 2% wipes, Power Infusion does provide a DPS increase on short wipes over a talent that isn't active (Twist of Fate), so the benefit isn't illusory at all: it's real and more effective boss damage for those pulls.

It's not optimal once you get to berserk phase wipes (or kills), but that's the point when you swap back to Twist of Fate, which we do - because it provides more damage at that point.

It's not that we're using Power Infusion to pad meters (obviously, because it's inferior), we're doing it to control perception - because it's a necessary part of the human element of raiding. Even if people know Spriests should be low on the pull, they are still influenced by seeing it.

[bicycle]

Do you also let your raid leaders know that you're respeccing for better first-50% performance instead of overall performance? I can see pros and cons to disclosing that bit of information, but the conversation in my head for how it would go if I told my raid leader I was doing that is amusing. Only reason I don't get sat for those kinds of fights is my guild isn't particularly cutthroat, and there are several people who are consistently ahead of me in line to be cut.

[Biomega]

Well, this is drifting off topic a bit but I still don't get it. I mean, if you're a class with a strongly non-linear performance (like SP), then people who know their stuff also know that - and surely it makes no sense to sit someone just because they're bad on an early phase, when they'll be really good at a late phase. They need to learn the early phase, too, after all.

On the other hand I do understand that the raid wants to get through early phases and actually progress. That makes sense. But the argument you're making for that seems flawed to me. Looking at meter numbers and sorting out people based on their performance in an isolated time window? Pushing talents you will not even end up using on the kill? Would it not make more sense to go with the setup you'll actually end up using for the kill? After all, you'll need to get through those early phases in a proper setup eventually, would it not make sense to have that from the beginning? Or do you just swap back after a while, and suddenly your performance is not what everyone has come to expect? That just doesn't make much sense to me.

Then again it's been like half a decade since I raided at W100 level, maybe things really have changed too much. And anyway, back to the original topics, I feel this discussion, while interesting, is not too beneficial for most of the people reading this thread.

[Jervaise]

What Yvaelle does is perfectly reasonable for progression. Sometimes you need to practice a later stage of a fight, and the guild needs everything to get there. Even lust and second potions.

Also getting an idea on your build, item choices, reforge options etc can help. Not everyone raids bosses after watching 4 kill vids, reading 4 pages of tips and tricks. Simply because they are not available yet.

[DarkieZ]

Power Infusion is unlikely to do anything to get a group closer to execute for ToF to shine. Better play, where people stop dying early or taking stupid damage, will get you there. Taking Power Infusion as an inferior talent to make it look like you're doing better on meters than you actually will when you switch to ToF when you miraculously get to execute is completely silly and you should be able to impress on your raid leader that when execute hits, especially on first kills such as Gruul/Butcher, you rapdily shoot from the bottom to the top.

[methz]

Power Infusion is unlikely to do anything to get a group closer to execute for ToF to shine. Better play, where people stop dying early or taking stupid damage, will get you there. Taking Power Infusion as an inferior talent to make it look like you're doing better on meters than you actually will when you switch to ToF when you miraculously get to execute is completely silly and you should be able to impress on your raid leader that when execute hits, especially on first kills such as Gruul/Butcher, you rapdily shoot from the bottom to the top.

I think the idea is moreso to help the raid see more of a fight if there's a change in mechanics based on the targets health %. Push more damage earlier on to get there, get familiar, swap to ToF once things are solid.

PI is only inferior to ToF if you're able to get uptime on it. No point in using it if you can't. I agree though, it is unlikely to do anything to get the group closer to execute for tof to shine... because they're in the same tier. You can't use both.

[bicycle]

It's not about actually being better. It's about looking better so you don't get benched. Did you guys not read? The raid leader is not a completely knowledgeable/rational person, and his perception can be managed. It's all politics, absolutely nothing to do with fight mechanics. And since it is politics, it's not really relevant to this thread, heh.

[DarkieZ]

I think the idea is moreso to help the raid see more of a fight if there's a change in mechanics based on the targets health %. Push more damage earlier on to get there, get familiar, swap to ToF once things are solid.

PI is only inferior to ToF if you're able to get uptime on it. No point in using it if you can't. I agree though, it is unlikely to do anything to get the group closer to execute for tof to shine... because they're in the same tier. You can't use both.

Truly? I had no idea. The only fights where tof won't proc, and are single target so dps actually matters, would be Gruul and the Butcher. Mechanics are the same regardless of health % except for Butcher's enrage which isn't relevant for us. If there was a fight where your scenario was applicable, then maybe. As it stands now those fights are all about everyone surviving and playing well while doing enough damage to hit execute range and taking PI to get closer to execute won't do anything.

[methz]

Because progression is a new thing that started in 6.0, i guess we can only cite two encounters. Oh well. Good thing we're pushing the health down only to see how the mechanics apply to us and not healer cd rotations or anything either.

[DarkieZ]

So you start progression using a talent you know is subpar and won't actually use on a kill to boost your numbers for attempts that don't really matter? Progression boys :^)

[Jervaise]

So you start progression using a talent you know is subpar and won't actually use on a kill to boost your numbers for attempts that don't really matter? Progression boys :^)

Attempts that don't really matter? Have you ever been in a raid, of any kind? All attempts do matter, until the raid can master the fight. To master the fight you need to practice a larger portion of it gradually. To increase the raid's acceleration coefficent towards later stages, you can use different options.

[Ponkster]

Madness that people think ToF is good for progression, unless there are short-lived adds take PI.

[methz]

So you start progression using a talent you know is subpar and won't actually use on a kill to boost your numbers for attempts that don't really matter? Progression boys :^)

...I use a talent I know is useful in the early stages of progression instead of one that's literally useless until the later stages. Not sure what's hard about this concept.

[Overdispersion]

Anyone else has an issue with cascade not bouncing if the target dies on the hit?

[Deleted]

Anyone else has an issue with cascade not bouncing if the target dies on the hit?

Yes, pretty annoying.

[DarkieZ]

Attempts that don't really matter? Have you ever been in a raid, of any kind? All attempts do matter, until the raid can master the fight. To master the fight you need to practice a larger portion of it gradually. To increase the raid's acceleration coefficent towards later stages, you can use different options.

No.

And when you drop the talent when you're getting to these later stages, other people have to make up for the lost damage pre-execute. You're never going to use PI for a kill, sure, you can practice with it or whatever, but we both know you're going to drop the talent for ToF because its superior. Gruul is probably the only fight you'd maybe use PI on this raid, not that I do raid, but better play from your raid members through attempts by not dying to smash and pre-nerf inferno slice gets you through the fight, not using PI to push through all those complicated mechanics and phases :^)

[Valkaneer]

Early progression on a boss like butcher isn't 2% wipes, Power Infusion does provide a DPS increase on short wipes over a talent that isn't active (Twist of Fate), so the benefit isn't illusory at all: it's real and more effective boss damage for those pulls.

It's not optimal once you get to berserk phase wipes (or kills), but that's the point when you swap back to Twist of Fate, which we do - because it provides more damage at that point.

It's not that we're using Power Infusion to pad meters (obviously, because it's inferior), we're doing it to control perception - because it's a necessary part of the human element of raiding. Even if people know Spriests should be low on the pull, they are still influenced by seeing it.

This is what my raid leader would say... You are helping the raid by getting to execute phase faster, it does not matter if your dps is lower in the last 20% because raid dps will be higher over all because we hit execute phase faster.

EDIT: Also you will never get to the execute phase if your raid wipes, so some times you need to push a phase real hard or wipe, and PI is going to do that. ToF is going to get you nothing.

I have been made to talent crap before due to this kind of reasoning, it does not help my dps at all sometimes but it helps every one else's.