Our Hybrid Siblings always get the attention

[Deleted]

Yes, the shift in design philosophy makes absolute sense and was greeted hapilly by vast majority of shamans.

The issue is, they still run the old, vanilla-esque tech and mechanics they used for totems while they were just, like you put it, "aura sticks". It's vastly outdated and has hard times facilitating the new role totems are supposed to perform. It still works decent enough, to an extent, in case of cooldowns and temporary auras (i could bring how ridiculous it was to make Stormlash cover both ranged and melee's on some fights, but since it's going away, let's leave it at that), but as i pointed countless times in this thread already, try putting an AoE effect tied to them and shit hits the fan. How do you think, why Magma Totem is so underwhelming?

I don't think AoE effects work badly on totems, Earthbind Totem always has worked pretty well imo. Magma Totem is uninteresting because of how low its damage is. It would be much more interesting if it was a high burst AoE cooldown, lasts 10 seconds, 3 minute cooldown type thing. That would be cool. The issue would be that it would then also become a single target cooldown which isn't what its meant to be, and would force Elemental into taking Totemic Projection as it would be a throughput increasing talent. That is why it isn't that way.

Feet placed AoE effects have the same downsides as all placed AoE effects have, but also with the issue of you having to be in the place they are (which is why Totemic Projection is a thing). I don't think the fact Magma Totem is a totem is really its problem at all. I also don't think that being totems limits what they can do at all. Think of Grounding Totem. There is no real reason for that to be a totem at all, it could be a buff and would work exactly the same, but it is a totem because of what class it belongs too. They could easily make other interesting effects that are tied to totems. AoE effects struggle because they are automatically placed at your feet, but that is how totems are. I could get behind them making Totemic Projection baseline and just completely reworking the totem tier talents, but removing/reworking totems altogether isn't the answer.

[Rafal]

I'm just gunna say it- I like totems! XD and I hope they don't go away ever but are improved upon instead!

[Blithe]

I don't think AoE effects work badly on totems, Earthbind Totem always has worked pretty well imo. Magma Totem is uninteresting because of how low its damage is. It would be much more interesting if it was a high burst AoE cooldown, lasts 10 seconds, 3 minute cooldown type thing. That would be cool. The issue would be that it would then also become a single target cooldown which isn't what its meant to be, and would force Elemental into taking Totemic Projection as it would be a throughput increasing talent. That is why it isn't that way.

Feet placed AoE effects have the same downsides as all placed AoE effects have, but also with the issue of you having to be in the place they are (which is why Totemic Projection is a thing). I don't think the fact Magma Totem is a totem is really its problem at all. I also don't think that being totems limits what they can do at all. Think of Grounding Totem. There is no real reason for that to be a totem at all, it could be a buff and would work exactly the same, but it is a totem because of what class it belongs too. They could easily make other interesting effects that are tied to totems. AoE effects struggle because they are automatically placed at your feet, but that is how totems are. I could get behind them making Totemic Projection baseline and just completely reworking the totem tier talents, but removing/reworking totems altogether isn't the answer.

In regards to your Magma Totem section of this quote, they could easily remove Magma Totem and turn Searing Totem into a cooldown of sorts. That removes a dull area of effect totem, doesn't force Elemental into anything, and also makes Searing Totem interesting. I can't think of any more of a win situation than that.

[Deleted]

In regards to your Magma Totem section of this quote, they could easily remove Magma Totem and turn Searing Totem into a cooldown of sorts. That removes a dull area of effect totem, doesn't force Elemental into anything, and also makes Searing Totem interesting. I can't think of any more of a win situation than that.

I agree. I've been pretty open with my disdain for both fire totems, they are relics of the old stat stick totem format. I think they don't want to do that though because it would mean that - apart from Resto who spam Healing Stream Totem - for the majority of an encounter a Shaman would not actually be using any totem at all.

I think they need to give Searing Totem and Magma Totem some kind of interaction with our rotation. Some kind of stacking Searing buff like they used to have for Enhancement that would also work on Magma Totem, but Magma Totem has like a 25% proc rate per target whilst Searing Totem has a 100% but only hits one, that you would consume with Lava Lash, Fire Nova, Earthquake (something to do with Volcanoes I guess?) and Lava Burst. Not completely game changing, but something that would make you actually notice them beyond being a stat stick.

[Deleted]

I already covered why grounding is a special case in the previous comments i made about totems. I also pointed out why i think outdated design is an extremely annoying chore when dealing with the new "aoe is on me" totems, ie: SLT and Capacitor. You chose to ignore those points altogether.

I'm sorry, but the more we talk, the more i arrive at conclusion that your main point is: "totems are worse than any other mechanic ingame but thats what makes them what they are". You're obviously entitled to that opinion, but i am, personally, tired of playing inferior class because "that's what shamans are about". Totems should either provide similar funcionality to other class mechanics, OR higher power level to compensate for the shitty functionality.

"Oldschool"/"Archaic" is not a class theme in competetive environment. It's a handicap.

[Deleted]

I already covered why grounding is a special case in the previous comments i made about totems. I also pointed out why i think outdated design is an extremely annoying chore when dealing with the new "aoe is on me" totems, ie: SLT and Capacitor. You chose to ignore those points altogether.

As I said, I think that Totemic Projection should be baseline, it solves the major issue of totems being placed at your feet. I agree that is a weakness that if they are alright with us being able to circumvent, then it should be baseline.

I'm sorry, but the more we talk, the more i arrive at conclusion that your main point is: "totems are worse than any other mechanic ingame but thats what makes them what they are". You're obviously entitled to that opinion, but i am, personally, tired of playing inferior class because "that's what shamans are about". Totems should either provide similar funcionality to other class mechanics, OR higher power level to compensate for the shitty functionality.

"Oldschool"/"Archaic" is not a class theme in competetive environment. It's a handicap.

I completely disagree that totems are 'worse than any other mechanic in the game' 100%. They are just different from normal buffs. They have their own weaknesses, but also their own set of strengths.

Some of them do provide similar functionality to other classs, Capacitor compared to Leg Sweep for example, but each has its own advantages and disadvantages (I am not saying whether one is better than the other or not, just that they are similar). SLT is similar to Tranquility, Divine Hymn, PW:B and Devotion Aura in that it is a raid cooldown, but it again has its own weaknesses and advantages. Used correctly it is arguably more versatile and stronger than any of them, but it has the weakness of being limited in size and being placed at your feet.

Overall, I think totems are a very good mechanic. They are utterly unique to us, something everyone cries out for but seems to think is a bad thing in this case, and come with their own set of strengths, but also weaknesses. To say they are bad simply because the mechanic has been around for a long time just doesn't make sense. As I said earlier, they have been updating the point of totems, moving away from stat sticks and towards utility/throughput cooldowns.

The only argument I commonly see about totems that I really accept as valid is the issue with their positioning, and I've said that should be addressed. The fact they can be killed instead of dispelled is the only other major difference between them and normal buffs, and for half of them it would make no sense for the ability they provide to be dispelled as they are ground based abilities, and for the ones that you could work to be dispellable (Mana Tide Totem maybe gives the shaman a buff that causes them to radiate mana rather than a totem) it doesn't really give you anything extra, it just removes class flavor.

If I am completely wrong and the issue here is actually not with how totems work, but with that they do, then thats a different story. We would have to address (as I did before) every totem individually and discuss what it is exactly that causes them to be bad, and what they should be replaced with/how they should be altered. Arguing against the entire mechanic as a whole though, I simply disagree with, and not just because 'thats how it is', but because I think the mechanic is actually good, and gives us something unique, a quality many people routinely claim WoW classes are losing.

[Tiberria]

As I said, I think that Totemic Projection should be baseline, it solves the major issue of totems being placed at your feet. I agree that is a weakness that if they are alright with us being able to circumvent, then it should be baseline.



I completely disagree that totems are 'worse than any other mechanic in the game' 100%. They are just different from normal buffs. They have their own weaknesses, but also their own set of strengths.

Some of them do provide similar functionality to other classs, Capacitor compared to Leg Sweep for example, but each has its own advantages and disadvantages (I am not saying whether one is better than the other or not, just that they are similar). SLT is similar to Tranquility, Divine Hymn, PW:B and Devotion Aura in that it is a raid cooldown, but it again has its own weaknesses and advantages. Used correctly it is arguably more versatile and stronger than any of them, but it has the weakness of being limited in size and being placed at your feet.

Overall, I think totems are a very good mechanic. They are utterly unique to us, something everyone cries out for but seems to think is a bad thing in this case, and come with their own set of strengths, but also weaknesses. To say they are bad simply because the mechanic has been around for a long time just doesn't make sense. As I said earlier, they have been updating the point of totems, moving away from stat sticks and towards utility/throughput cooldowns.

The only argument I commonly see about totems that I really accept as valid is the issue with their positioning, and I've said that should be addressed. The fact they can be killed instead of dispelled is the only other major difference between them and normal buffs, and for half of them it would make no sense for the ability they provide to be dispelled as they are ground based abilities, and for the ones that you could work to be dispellable (Mana Tide Totem maybe gives the shaman a buff that causes them to radiate mana rather than a totem) it doesn't really give you anything extra, it just removes class flavor.

If I am completely wrong and the issue here is actually not with how totems work, but with that they do, then thats a different story. We would have to address (as I did before) every totem individually and discuss what it is exactly that causes them to be bad, and what they should be replaced with/how they should be altered. Arguing against the entire mechanic as a whole though, I simply disagree with, and not just because 'thats how it is', but because I think the mechanic is actually good, and gives us something unique, a quality many people routinely claim WoW classes are losing.

The limitations around Shaman cooldowns being totems as opposed to buffs make them inferior in both PvE and PvP.

In PvE, you get zero advantage whatsoever from having most of your cooldowns being totems. There is only downside, from the positioning/range issues, to the risk that they bug out and despawn to the fact that moving them when needed requires wasting a talent point.

In PvP, you are essentially trading off having a dispellable buff for having a killable totem. The dispellable buff is almost universally better because (1) dispels are limited to healers and are limited to 8 second cooldowns (2) totems can be globaled by any one that's paying attention with no spec limitations, and no cooldown limation.

[Deleted]

The limitations around Shaman cooldowns being totems as opposed to buffs make them inferior in both PvE and PvP.

In PvE, you get zero advantage whatsoever from having most of your cooldowns being totems. There is only downside, from the positioning/range issues, to the risk that they bug out and despawn to the fact that moving them when needed requires wasting a talent point.

In PvP, you are essentially trading off having a dispellable buff for having a killable totem. The dispellable buff is almost universally better because (1) dispels are limited to healers and are limited to 8 second cooldowns (2) totems can be globaled by any one that's paying attention with no spec limitations, and no cooldown limation.

PvE they are essentially just feet placed buffs. As I've said multiple times, I think Totemic Projection should be baseline, because as you say, when you need to use the totems you are basically forced to take it as a talent.

In PvP you have to play around them, it causes you to play differently than other classes might. You can abuse line of site with totems which other classes can't do. For example Mana Tide Totem vs Innervate, if a Druid pops Innervate they have to LoS to protect the buff from being dispelled, whilst a Resto Shaman can drop MTT and then run out from behind LoS and continue to fight whilst still getting the benefit. Same with the two healing totems, you can heal people you don't even have LoS of. You are only looking at the negatives and completely ignoring the positives. If you do that, of course they will look bad.

[Teriz]

Like I said in the other thread: Shaman are a WotLK-style class in modern WoW. Some of our mechanics go back a decade. While other classes have moved forward, we're stuck in neutral.

[Roamingstorm]

Like I said in the other thread: Shaman are a WotLK-style class in modern WoW. Some of our mechanics go back a decade. While other classes have moved forward, we're stuck in neutral.

Which I share the same opinion for the most part. I feel when homogenization hit, it hit Shaman the hardest for obvious reasons because we were the Swiss army knife of buffs to a raid. Shaman to me always felt as the support role, but again with homogenization it pretty much snuffed that out.

I won't say that NOTHING has been done with the class, but it does feel as though Blizzard is at a loss on what direction to take the class, and I don't blame them. Attempting to build upon an archaic class design that doesn't fit well with the others has to be difficult. But I do feel sometimes some of the changes feel quickly patched on or lazy, for example Earthquake in WoD.

My thoughts on Shaman is this, and I know people may hate some...
-Totems were always fun, but since most have gone poof it's like a mixed feeling with them. Yes I love the fact that dropping a totem feels more empowering then before, but it feels as though our choices in totems are some what limited.
-The two totem talents, Stone Bulwark and Windwalk totem should not be talents, but baseline. Plop a higher CD to Windwalk, replace the talents with something that already should be in place.
-Lv 45 talents. I will say that they are useful, but honestly I feel as though they're not fun. Talents, especially with the new system, need to feel epic. (This goes for all classes though with talents in general.)
-Restoration and smart heals. The whole spec is nearly based on them I feel, but now with how smart heals are going it just turns things upside down for the spec.

Lastly I feel as though if Blizzard wants to keep us in this sort of awkward design of a support class then Ancestral Guidance and Conductivity were steps in the right direction. Obviously I have no clue how'd they implement it, but I do miss the hybrid feeling of helping to off heal if something goes wrong, and having the ability to deal damage and heal at the same time I felt brought back a feeling I lost a long time ago with the class. Now obviously Enh/Ele wouldn't heal more then resto, or any other healer, but just something that I feel would make the class fine being "middle of the pack" if they also could heal, whether passively or actively, while fighting.

[Manabomb]

Like I said in the other thread: Shaman are a WotLK-style class in modern WoW. Some of our mechanics go back a decade. While other classes have moved forward, we're stuck in neutral.

How much I would rather have wotlk ret than mop ret. Being circle jerked with inquisition since it's implementation has driven me bonkers.

Though, I can sympathize, playing a ww monk or a ret is much cleaner than playing my enhance, and I don't need an oPie ring to hold all of my classes "cooldowns".

[Blithe]

I agree. I've been pretty open with my disdain for both fire totems, they are relics of the old stat stick totem format. I think they don't want to do that though because it would mean that - apart from Resto who spam Healing Stream Totem - for the majority of an encounter a Shaman would not actually be using any totem at all.

I think they need to give Searing Totem and Magma Totem some kind of interaction with our rotation. Some kind of stacking Searing buff like they used to have for Enhancement that would also work on Magma Totem, but Magma Totem has like a 25% proc rate per target whilst Searing Totem has a 100% but only hits one, that you would consume with Lava Lash, Fire Nova, Earthquake (something to do with Volcanoes I guess?) and Lava Burst. Not completely game changing, but something that would make you actually notice them beyond being a stat stick.

They're already removing Searing Flames which is a godsend, and I don't want a similar mechanic to be reintroduced. :P

[Deleted]

Let me reiterate then (i already said this twice but somehow it falls on deaf ears, so lets try again).

Spirit Link Totem, compared to its biggest contender around, PW:B, is vastly inferior in the numerical world. 10% reduction in damage for 6 seconds versus 25% for 10, that's over FOUR TIMES less damage mitigated in a steady stream of raidwide damage scenario.

Now the counter argument is: "There's the health redistribution that's invaluable! You cannot die while SLT is up!" I am not going to argue with that point, although it's only partially true. Instead, i'll point this out - to actually fully utilise the redistribution mechanic, you have to be able to put the totem precisely where you want to and when you want to.

Think about it. A straggler running into the stack late? Have to cover him and as much of the raid stack as possible. 2 groups spread in a set distance? Want to cover them both with the edges of the totem. Tank is taking big hits while AoE raid dmg happens? You dont want him to take part in the redistribution, so you have to exlude him from the stack. That's 3 examples off the top of my head, where proper positioning of the totem to use it's health redistribution mechanic is CRUCIAL.

And we cant do that. Not only we have to spec for an ability to put it at a distance, but also that particular ability does not actually put the totem where it shows you the marker. You have to press aditional buttons, already within the limited, 6 second window (while priest's setting up doesn't take time from his CD), but also do guesswork where the totem will actually land.

Not going to make another example for using Capacitor. You go and figure it out. Situation is just as ridiculous considering the "windup" on it.

Now, all that in mind, things have to go either way. You either accept totems have inferior mechanics and buff their numerical values to offset that, or you improve the functionality. I can agree SLT is strong in it's current form due to the redistribute mechanic. Let us use it properly then, for crying out loud.

And Undefetter: totems ARE worse than other game mechanics. It shows when they aren't buffs. Because with buffs, noone cares. Ok, it's and aura and it's annoying when you run out of it, but that i could live with. But they're absolutely inferior to on-ground placed AoE's. There's no "strenghts to outweigh the weaknesses". None. It's an archaic relict of vanilla that has to be brought up to speed, if you want us to have abilities like SLT and Capacitor. Working on Projection would be a start.

[Teriz]

And Undefetter: totems ARE worse than other game mechanics. It shows when they aren't buffs. Because with buffs, noone cares. Ok, it's and aura and it's annoying when you run out of it, but that i could live with. But they're absolutely inferior to on-ground placed AoE's. There's no "strenghts to outweigh the weaknesses". None. It's an archaic relict of vanilla that has to be brought up to speed, if you want us to have abilities like SLT and Capacitor. Working on Projection would be a start.

I'm forced to agree. The very fact that you can't use Spirit Link, Grounding, and Capacitor totems at the same time illustrates this fact perfectly.

Is there any evidence that removing this vanilla barrier would make us OP in any way, shape, or form? I seriously doubt it. We're dealing with a very conservative design philosophy here.

[Blithe]

I'm forced to agree. The very fact that you can't use Spirit Link, Grounding, and Capacitor totems at the same time illustrates this fact perfectly.

Is there any evidence that removing this vanilla barrier would make us OP in any way, shape, or form? I seriously doubt it. We're dealing with a very conservative design philosophy here.

I don't think we should remove that 1 totem per element barrier, we should design the totems to have shorter duration's instead. Stone Bulwark Totem is a problem with that design as to benefit from the entire effect you have to have it standing for an entire 30 seconds, which goes against the short duration, short cooldown totem philosophy that we should be working around. Something like Tremor Totem works because it only lasts 6 seconds, and Healing Stream Totem works because it doesn't last long, or clip with the other two larger water-based totem cooldowns.

[SenSayNyu]

I don't think we should remove that 1 totem per element barrier, we should design the totems to have shorter duration's instead. Stone Bulwark Totem is a problem with that design as to benefit from the entire effect you have to have it standing for an entire 30 seconds, which goes against the short duration, short cooldown totem philosophy that we should be working around. Something like Tremor Totem works because it only lasts 6 seconds, and Healing Stream Totem works because it doesn't last long, or clip with the other two larger water-based totem cooldowns.

You forgot new Storm Elemental Totem in WoD that lasts 1 min. What's the point of the talent, if i can't be used properly (capacitor/grounding/spirit link wink-wink) without talent in 45 tier.

[Deleted]

It actually does clip, even a simple HST > MTT > HST forces you to delay the 2nd HST by a couple seconds. HST is in general terribly designed, it's a "drop on every CD" skill in a healers arsenal. There should never be skills you do not think about dropping on CD in any healers arsenal, really.

The issue Teriz highlighted stems from the fact that any utility CD ---> Air, with a few exceptions that are so nieche it hardly matters. At least Stormlash is gone, that one being air as well was really painful.

[Keiyra]

In PvP, you are essentially trading off having a dispellable buff for having a killable totem. The dispellable buff is almost universally better because (1) dispels are limited to healers and are limited to 8 second cooldowns (2) totems can be globaled by any one that's paying attention with no spec limitations, and no cooldown limation.

That's not 100% correct - most healers have only defensive dispels (8 sec cd)- whereas you are talking about offensive dispelling (removing an opponents buffs). Some of which have no CD (spellsteal, purge) and are available to non-healer classes - therefore being able to protect buffs from offensive dispelling is a valid part of the "benefit" of totems and shouldn't just be immediately dismissed.

Their ridiculously low HP however is a relic of when they could be redropped with no CD and should have been greatly bumped up when they changed totems to have CD's. Dunno what the hell blizz was thinking by leaving them that weak.

I also think projection should just be baseline and rework of that whole talent tier should be done.

[Blithe]

It actually does clip, even a simple HST > MTT > HST forces you to delay the 2nd HST by a couple seconds. HST is in general terribly designed, it's a "drop on every CD" skill in a healers arsenal. There should never be skills you do not think about dropping on CD in any healers arsenal, really.

The issue Teriz highlighted stems from the fact that any utility CD ---> Air, with a few exceptions that are so nieche it hardly matters. At least Stormlash is gone, that one being air as well was really painful.

That's if you're min-maxing which is optional. HST is fine as it doesn't contend as much as the others elements for drop placements. Elementals themselves shouldn't be tied to totems at all, they should be their own unique cooldown (albeit the Fire and Earth Elemental still sharing cooldowns).

[Deleted]

Yeah, but HST, HTT and MTT already occupy the water slot enough for you to have to push the HST aside when one of the big CD's comes in. Add the new Condensation totem to the mix and you got yourself a pickle. Not that in it's current form it's worth it, but just one more argument against it.