The Future of Retribution (Constructive)

[Nurvus]

Sometimes just chasing the enemy is not the best way to win. Instant ranged attacks have various benefits when coupled with los. And fearing someone running away creates a very nice window to kill their partner instead of blind tunneling.

Damage is damage; judge builds hopow for healing, damage, or even just running faster. It has its pluses and minuses vs instant movement, but we weren't comparing that, we were comparing what happens when you get out of range and how it effects resource pooling and future damage.

But we weren't just talking about getting out of range. I'm also talking about getting CC'd or LoS'd.

Our kit is currently balanced around very fast, continuous ability spam.
If you have an ability available and you wait 1 second for whatever reason, you're wasting damage.
If a rogue has Energy available and waits 1-2 seconds, he'll just have more energy available, and has enough free GCD's to unload the surplus.

That's pretty much what I'm discussing here, and one of the basis for my suggestions that revolve around Mana (Crusader Strike & Righteous Smash) and Charges (Seals and TAoW).

[ruiizu]

But we weren't just talking about getting out of range. I'm also talking about getting CC'd or LoS'd.

Our kit is currently balanced around very fast, continuous ability spam.
If you have an ability available and you wait 1 second for whatever reason, you're wasting damage.
If a rogue has Energy available and waits 1-2 seconds, he'll just have more energy available, and has enough free GCD's to unload the surplus.

That's pretty much what I'm discussing here, and one of the basis for my suggestions that revolve around Mana (Crusader Strike & Righteous Smash) and Charges (Seals and TAoW).

It's already been quoted by Blizzard that mana for us is to limit the frequency of our utility (particularly heals). If you want to grant the ability to "unload" you could make Exorcism stronger and give it charges granted by Art of War, up to a certain cap (say, 5). Same effect being able to "unload" for a short period, just without compromising the current resource model which does actually work pretty well.

To be clear I don't think it's a bad idea to let us bank more damage when being unable to attack, I just disagree with the semantics of how and how much.

[Nurvus]

It's already been quoted by Blizzard that mana for us is to limit the frequency of our utility (particularly heals). If you want to grant the ability to "unload" you could make Exorcism stronger and give it charges granted by Art of War, up to a certain cap (say, 5). Same effect being able to "unload" for a short period, just without compromising the current resource model which does actually work pretty well.

To be clear I don't think it's a bad idea to let us bank more damage when being unable to attack, I just disagree with the semantics of how and how much.

Well, I did suggest TAoW to give up to 2 additional charges to HoW since I suggest removing Exorcism.
But we need free GCD's to unload that extra burst.
But if we free GCD's, we need something else keeping our utility in check, otherwise we'll just be doing max dps & max utility simultaneously, which is unfair considering our sizeable amount of utility.
And I think in Retribution's case Mana is the best way.

Note, however, that I'm only suggesting 1 damage ability to be mana intensive - not exactly the same as having a whole rotation around mana.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

What I meant is I feel Exorcism is better feely/iconic ability then Hammer of Wrath IMO. Since Hammer of Wrath looks like a mini silverish Blacksmith hammer >_<

[ruiizu]

What I meant is I feel Exorcism is better feely/iconic ability then Hammer of Wrath IMO. Since Hammer of Wrath looks like a mini silverish Blacksmith hammer >_<

I think the Exorcism sound effect is iconic. But visually it's just a small yellow flash as opposed to a white lightningy hammer.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Sometimes just chasing the enemy is not the best way to win. Instant ranged attacks have various benefits when coupled with los. And fearing someone running away creates a very nice window to kill their partner instead of blind tunneling.

Damage is damage; judge builds hopow for healing, damage, or even just running faster. It has its pluses and minuses vs instant movement, but we weren't comparing that, we were comparing what happens when you get out of range and how it effects resource pooling and future damage.

Damage isnt damage when its negated and offset by a meagre hot/absorb, and every class had one or the other.

Oh, and I'm more than sure its a very bright idea - to stand right there and cast a fear in that kiting mage's face. Not like he's gonna interrupt you and lock out EVERYTHING you have.

But do forgive me if I'm too bitter, cynical and caustic .
I may be wrong, and I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.
At least once.
For a change.

[ruiizu]

Damage isnt damage when its negated and offset by a meagre hot/absorb, and every class had one or the other.

Oh, and I'm more than sure its a very bright idea - to stand right there and cast a fear in that kiting mage's face. Not like he's gonna interrupt you and lock out EVERYTHING you have.

But do forgive me if I'm too bitter, cynical and caustic .
I may be wrong, and I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.
At least once.
For a change.

Please keep in mind the title of the thread when posting hostility. Regarding PvP strategy. I'm more than happy to discuss that, so long as it pertains to the topic. For the record, doing things unconventionally can be devastatingly effective. Without knowing your hypothetical situation (is it a lone mage? are we talking about a warlock? do I have a teammate?), it's difficult to postulate a response that would satisfy you by my estimates. Just know that it isn't unusual to catch someone kiting you offguard with a casted CC simply because they weren't expecting it; I'm not suggesting casting a spell mid-kite is always the solution, just one of many. I've found LoS to be especially effective as a Ret paladin and foresee it remaining that way in the future with the reduction of instant cast spells. If anything, WoD will be providing us a passive boost in the form of less instant attacks from other classes (an indirect buff as we can always attack on the move).

Regarding offset damage, I don't think I'm going to convince you that all forms of pressure matter when wearing down your opponent. Whether you chose to believe that or not is your decision, but just know that damage has to be healed off by using resources, whether they be mana, combo points, holy power, etc. Meanwhile you're not only adding damage to the target, but preparing to do more damage by gaining Holy Power (or conversely, using Holy Power to heal off their damage).

Anyways, going into WoD, we'll see how numbers need to be adjusted. Hand of Light is a particular problem, primarily for Exorcism, because as the expansion goes on, it causes us to devalue Exorcism, despite it being a proc. It's a problem today and could be a problem tomorrow, so we may want to discuss solutions to that, among other things.

[Nurvus]

What I meant is I feel Exorcism is better feely/iconic ability then Hammer of Wrath IMO. Since Hammer of Wrath looks like a mini silverish Blacksmith hammer >_<

I think the Exorcism sound effect is iconic. But visually it's just a small yellow flash as opposed to a white lightningy hammer.

I agree partially with both points.

Although I wouldn't mind renaming HoW "Exorcism", and give it its visual effect, I would prefer:
1 - give Judgement "exorcism's" sound effect
2 - improve the visual effects of both Judgement and Hammer of Wrath.

However, when I speak of Exorcism in this discussion, I am talking exclusively about gameplay - comparing an "execute" vs "nuke always available that doesn't do anything interesting and has no real distinction from Judgement".

I mean, there was a time when Execute was a cast time spell without a cooldown. You NEEDED The Art of War to make it instant and useable in your rotation, and that also made you GIVE UP an instant Flash of Light.
Now? Derp.

[ruiizu]

I agree partially with both points.

Although I wouldn't mind renaming HoW "Exorcism", and give it its visual effect, I would prefer:
1 - give Judgement "exorcism's" sound effect
2 - improve the visual effects of both Judgement and Hammer of Wrath.

However, when I speak of Exorcism in this discussion, I am talking exclusively about gameplay - comparing an "execute" vs "nuke always available that doesn't do anything interesting and has no real distinction from Judgement".

I mean, there was a time when Execute was a cast time spell without a cooldown. You NEEDED The Art of War to make it instant and useable in your rotation, and that also made you GIVE UP an instant Flash of Light.
Now? Derp.

I felt Exorcism having no CD but not being instant was far more compelling gameplay overall. There were times where you couldn't get in range so I'd just hang there casting Exorcism/Judgment (usually against a flying target such as the Blind boss). But right now mechanically, Exorcism and Judgment are literally almost identical (ranged holy damage attack with no special effects). One of them needs to do something different for our rotation (either be extremely powerful via Art of War, interact with another ability, etc), or one of them needs to go. Keeping things for nostalgia's sake isn't really healthy for the game at this point imo.

I don't agree with giving up a Flash of Light though. Not unless Flash of Light would be DRAMATICALLY stronger as a result, because the trade-off is there.

[Nurvus]

@ruiizu
Don't forget about passive healing that needs little to no resources.
Don't forget HoTs that are usually very effective for their cost, and the only downside is that they need time to act - time you're giving the opponent while you're in LoS.

But yes, every situation is a different monster, and I agree there may be an indirect buff to Retribution by removing other classes' instants.
Less ppl snaring/slowing and spamming instants at us.
No warlocks running while spamming Incinerates all the time due to a passive Kil'jaeden's Cunning.
No shamans running while spamming Lightning Bolts all the time.

But keep this in mind: Retribution, Enhancement and DK having ranged abilities is a necessity due to lack of charge/shadowstep.
DK have Death Grip, but Warriors have nearly half cooldown on charge, as well as Heroic Leap; and Rogues have both Shadowstep/Burst of Speed and Vanish/re-stealth mechanic to get back into the fray, as well as a bunch of moves to hold someone down.

So we're not in an advantageous position at all. Not comparing to Shamans, not comparing to anyone.

But back to this thread's focus(es):
- Flavor
- Buffing us where we need buffing
- Nerfing us where we need nerfing in order to "earn" the right to buffing

Try to keep those 3 into perspective in everything we discuss.
1 - We need a little more burst outside our dps cooldowns
1.1 - For that we need to be able to pool some surplus damage
1.1.1 - For that to work we also need room in your GCD's to fit that surplus damage
1.2 - If we free GCD's, we need something else to keep our utility in check while we deal damage.
1.2.1 - That's where Mana added to Crusader Strike and HotR (renamed Righteous Strike) comes into play.
2 - We need our sustained damage to be competitive
2.1 - For that to happen we need similar restrictions to other dps classes.
2.1.1 - That's also partially why I add Mana to Crusader Strike, so that we are forced to sacrifice some utility in order to do max dps.
2.1.2 - That's also partially behind the changes to Consecration, which buffs us in PvE while keeping us counterable in PvP.
3 - We need a little more depth in our rotation
3.1 - This is where my suggested Seals and Wrathbringer come into play
3.1.1 - My Seals (alongside Mana, to an extent) are the "poolable" resource I suggest to help us deal some burst
3.1.2 - Wrathbringer brings 2 effects to monitor - Eternal Storm and Eternal Wrath (WoG used in Seal of Truth) - and one powerful finisher (finally) - Final Verdict.
4 - Heavier hits
4.1 - Why are we a 2handed class but hit lighter and faster than dual wielders? We need to hit harder.
4.1.1 - For that, we also need to hit slower, and that's why I suggest increasing the CD of Judgement and HoW
4.1.1.1 - This is also the prime way to free up GCD's for the issue in point 1.
5 - Redundancy
5.1 - Exorcism, enough said :P Just gave its job to Hammer of Wrath.

- - - Updated - - -

There is another issue I would like to discuss:
When Retribution got Rebuke, I created a thread that criticized it.
I mean, the Retribution - in PvP - has always had issues sticking to or even reaching a ranged target that has a brain.
Because of that, interrupting a spell, is extremely unlikely for Retribution.

Granted, before Rebuke was added, enemies could simply hardcast everything in our face since we had no interrupt - although at that time, staying in our face probably meant an early death because we had a nasty (tadah!) burst.

Still, I always wondered: If Shaman has a ranged interrupt, partially because it is expected to not always reach the enemy, and Retribution and has a fairly similar set of tools regarding range and mobility, why isn't Rebuke ranged?

Now, I don't exactly like homogenizing, but I don't really think this would be the case, anyway, considering that Rebuke has a very different cooldown and spell lock duration than Wind Shear.
But I'll add to that:
What if Rebuke becomes 25 yd ranged (like Wind Shear) and has 20 sec cooldown (up from 15), but if you successfully interrupt in melee, the cooldown is brought down to 15?
This would make it "inefficient" at range, but at least we'd have something.

[Crushima]

Just roll a warrior if you want your mana bar to function like a rage bar. Otherwise, get used to Paladin in it's current state

Infracted. Post constructively ("just reroll" is not). ~Fhi

[Nurvus]

Just roll a warrior if you want your mana bar to function like a rage bar. Otherwise, get used to Paladin in it's current state

When I want to roll, I play my Monk.

And I have all classes at 90. Because I like all classes.

[Nurvus]

I've added a new passive: Unyielding Faith.
This passive existed in TBC & WotLK.
The idea is providing Retribution (and perhaps prot/holy) some defense against Fear.

It is a mere 25% reduction to the duration of fear effects.
I believe this is quite important for Retribution due to several reasons:

• Retribution is the only melee spec in the game that combines three major flaws - no gap closer; no ranged interrupt & no ability to remove/protect against fear.
  
  Before you might say Divine Shield does the latter, remember that it has a huge cooldown, halves our dps while active, and we're essentially sacrificing our biggest survival tool for the sake of a fear, causing the enemy to just focus us.
  • Having no gap closer and depending on movement speed increases & snare protection to move around, that is turned against us with Feas.
  • Having no gap closer, reflect or ranged interrupt, we can't really prevent that Fear from hitting us.
  • Given the spammable nature of fears and how it penalizes paladins, it makes sense to have our defense against it be passive.
  • There are enough CC break in the game.
• As far as Lore goes, if there is a class that should have a high defense against fear, Paladin is definitely the #1 candidate.

[Nurvus]

Major updates to the suggestion, specially the interaction between the Seals and Finishers.
Also added High Mana cost to Seals.

The goal is indeed making Mana for Retribution feel a little like Energy for Rogues or Monks or even Runes for DKs, as it gives more leverage for Blizzard to create a compromise between how much utility we have to sacrifice in order to bring out our full damage, by adjusting Mana costs on various abilities.

[anaxie]

Ret is working fine on beta now. Your stuff is pretty irrelevant

Nevermind in it's entirety it's simply you and one person talking. Just an observation. Maybe you should use your creativity with the actual mechanics being developed now and join in on t he conversations instead of trying to be different.

[Nurvus]

Ret is working fine on beta now. Your stuff is pretty irrelevant

Nevermind in it's entirety it's simply you and one person talking. Just an observation. Maybe you should use your creativity with the actual mechanics being developed now and join in on t he conversations instead of trying to be different.

Ironic that you use an empty claim to say my stuff is pretty irrelevant.

Furthermore, you say Ret is working fine on beta, yet acknowledge there are "discussions" about it.

You were doing better when you were posting constructively.
Playing psychiatrist just isn't your thing.

I don't hop threads based on popularity. I have something to share, and I am doing just that. I'm not seeking attention.

[NickCageFanatic]

I'm not seeking attention.

Says the person that necroed their 2 month old thread...

[Aeula]

Don't like the idea of using mana as a resource, it's extremely annoying on low mana classes.

[Nurvus]

Says the person that necroed their 2 month old thread...

Lucky for you, the answer to your dilemma has been in my signature for way longer than 2 months.

Don't like the idea of using mana as a resource, it's extremely annoying on low mana classes.

Er, I'm not suggesting you spend more mana without having a way to recover it.
The idea is making it more like Energy, including the ability to scale with Haste.

It essentially allows Blizzard to give Retribution better damage options while forcing some compromise between full damage and survival/healing.

[Deleted]

Don't you dare touch Final Verdict and replace it with a copy of GoAK. Most of the suggestions seem to have the sole intention of making the Paladin unnecessarily more powerful (especially passive wise with the auras). I also feel like making BoP usable solely on allies for the 1min cd reduction is not worth it, especially since we can spec into Clemency if we want it more frequently. I could comment on every suggestion, but as the OP is a post with your ideas and this'd be a post with my ideas I don't think it'd get us anywhere considering neither of us has any input at Blizzard, and Blizzard has loads of people with ideas. Though I respect your enthusiasm for game design.