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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    They definitely will not bring back Reforging so you can change minor stats. (A) serves no purpose and (B) against the actual design goal for minors. They're random bonuses that are not required to min/max in any way.
    I could see the D3 reforge model working with the new system. I.e. results are random, cost increases with each attempt, but you never end up worse than you started since you can just choose the original(aside from losing the resources). Can't change fixed stats, only the random bonuses.

    Put a gold cost on it and it might make a good gold sink as well.

  2. #22
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Versatility, as I understand it, will deliberately be slightly suboptimal compared to other stats (not sure if they were including tanks & healers in that comment though), however the tradeoff is it also increases survivability. So if you have it, it's not the end of the world, and maybe for soloing or whatnot it'll have a use - but nobody will actually be going for it most of the time.
    And then all of <insert slot here> in a raid tier for <insert armor class here>-users will have Versatility on them. Remember when Firelands had 0 spirit gear for Priests? Remember when Dragon Soul had ZERO cloaks and necklaces for Warlocks and Mages because they all had spirit?

    Regardless, it's a stupid stat, and they're only adding one because they wanted 5 secondaries. I don't see the problem with keeping the current formula + multistrike. Also, regardless of what anyone says, it will either be suboptimal and stay that way through the expansion, or too good and then will be nerfed to oblivion. No middle ground.

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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    And then all of <insert slot here> in a raid tier for <insert armor class here>-users will have Versatility on them. Remember when Firelands had 0 spirit gear for Priests? Remember when Dragon Soul had ZERO cloaks and necklaces for Warlocks and Mages because they all had spirit?

    Regardless, it's a stupid stat, and they're only adding one because they wanted 5 secondaries. I don't see the problem with keeping the current formula + multistrike. Also, regardless of what anyone says, it will either be suboptimal and stay that way through the expansion, or too good and then will be nerfed to oblivion. No middle ground.
    Why couldn't it be balanced to say be better than mastery for a given spec but not as good as haste?
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  4. #24
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malzra View Post
    Why couldn't it be balanced to say be better than mastery for a given spec but not as good as haste?
    How do you define balance for a dps class when it comes to versatility - are you referring only to the offensive part of the stat? In that case, it has to be worse offensively or there would be no reason to ever take any secondary it was even on par with.

    Even 5% damage reduction is huge in raids. You stack enough versatility on your raid and you could eventually drop a healer, which basically converts the defensive portion of the stat into more offense. You'd have a "breakpoint" of sorts, but far enough into the expansion you could see the value of versatility rise once we are capable of stacking it to that point.

    Hard to believe they think Versatility is a good idea. It's boring, you can't feel the impact it has like you can with the other secondaries. It has absolutely no impact on your rotation at all, can't be used to cater to certain spells or favor certain playstyles or encounters...unless you count the damage reduction aspect, [sarcasm] but then why not just bring back resist gear [/sarcasm]?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Huevos View Post
    It has absolutely no impact on your rotation at all, can't be used to cater to certain spells or favor certain playstyles or encounters...unless you count the damage reduction aspect, [sarcasm] but then why not just bring back resist gear [/sarcasm]?
    It favors a playstyle, and they announced it: People who like to hybridize. That disc priest that likes to deal damage. That Boomkin that loves to throw a heal every so often. That Feral cat that isnt afraid to go bear if something goes wrong.
    It's not the greatest stat, but it definitely has a niche.
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  6. #26
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaoslux View Post
    It favors a playstyle, and they announced it: People who like to hybridize. That disc priest that likes to deal damage. That Boomkin that loves to throw a heal every so often. That Feral cat that isnt afraid to go bear if something goes wrong.
    It's not the greatest stat, but it definitely has a niche.
    This is the Mage forum. If this were a healer/tank stat, fine, but even then your argument is tenuous at best as neither of those situations is likely to be optimal, and thus rarely utilized.

  7. #27
    What I get from this Versatility secondary (for mages)... With the elimination of Hit/Expertise on gear, they wanted to add back stats to offset said losses, thus allowing for same number of options to choose from when creating gear secondary stats.

    So if I am understanding Secondary stats correctly (for mages), we are going from;

    Mastery, Haste, Crit, Hit and Expertise

    to;

    Mastery, Haste, Crit, Multistrike and Versatility

    My take is they want 5 itemization options minimum per spec, with the removal of Readiness, they needed something and wanted said something to potentially apply to all specs. Meaning we are going to have bleh pieces just like we do now, for example as a Frost mage, Matery/Haste is the best and anything with Crit is not as desirable.

  8. #28
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    Except that we have three to choose from now as hit and expertise are identical and there is no actual choice there. The only purpose they serve is as a stat sink, which has no interesting effect whatsoever.

    We would have been fine with the four, versatility feels like their rushed attempt to come up with a fifth stat simply because they want five, not because it's better for the game. I want to feel the effect of stat gain rotationally, and you won't with versatility.

    If they itemize gear so it's rare and not on BiS, fine, but I'll be pretty disappointed if it ever shows up on tier pieces or if there are no alternatives.
    Last edited by Huevos; 2014-06-10 at 07:14 PM.

  9. #29
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huevos View Post
    Except that we have three to choose from now as hit and expertise are identical and there is no actual choice there. The only purpose they serve is as a stat sink, which has no interesting effect whatsoever.

    We would have been fine with the four, versatility feels like their rushed attempt to come up with a fifth stat simply because they want five, not because it's better for the game. I want to feel the effect of stat gain rotationally, and you won't with versatility.
    Yep, that's exactly what versatility is, and I don't get it. Why are they set on having 5 secondary stats? They've openly said that they are going to try and balance versatility to not be as good as the other 4, and as a stat its completely uninteresting (straight up damage increase/decrease). They are removing hit/expertise because they are boring "set AMR to hit cap and forget" stats, but then they add a completely boring stat. Maybe they got too far along the development cycle of gear and stuff with 5 stats on there (prior to scrapping readiness) but even that seems like a stretch since we're still in Alpha so clearly numbers and balancing haven't happened much if at all. Versatility seems to go against everything they've said about their goals with stats in WoD and it doesn't make sense.

    edit: yeah yeah, secondary not primary :P
    Last edited by Wilderness; 2014-06-11 at 01:23 AM.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    Why are they set on having 5 secondary stats?
    Tsk, tsk. FTFY.

  11. #31
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gallamann View Post
    What I get from this Versatility secondary (for mages)... With the elimination of Hit/Expertise on gear, they wanted to add back stats to offset said losses, thus allowing for same number of options to choose from when creating gear secondary stats.
    I would argue Hit and Expertise being "different" stats when they both did essentially the same thing: Allowed you to hit more.

    ESPECIALLY for casters, Hit and Expertise were the same, as were Hit, Expertise, and Spirit for Boomies, Shadow Priests, and Elementals.

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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I could see the D3 reforge model working with the new system. I.e. results are random, cost increases with each attempt, but you never end up worse than you started since you can just choose the original(aside from losing the resources). Can't change fixed stats, only the random bonuses.

    Put a gold cost on it and it might make a good gold sink as well.
    Eh, I don't think that would really work in WoW. People would just bitch about reforging being back but with a pain in the ass RNG barrier. Also, they don't want you having to go back to town to reforge every time you get new gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    And then all of <insert slot here> in a raid tier for <insert armor class here>-users will have Versatility on them. Remember when Firelands had 0 spirit gear for Priests? Remember when Dragon Soul had ZERO cloaks and necklaces for Warlocks and Mages because they all had spirit?

    Regardless, it's a stupid stat, and they're only adding one because they wanted 5 secondaries. I don't see the problem with keeping the current formula + multistrike. Also, regardless of what anyone says, it will either be suboptimal and stay that way through the expansion, or too good and then will be nerfed to oblivion. No middle ground.
    What I'm saying is, they don't want a middle ground, they deliberately made it suboptimal.

    Basically, its something you get on some pieces of gear but you try to minimise if you can. Unless you're building a set for some other purpose (assuming it doesn't effectively turn out to be a tank stat).

    Quote Originally Posted by Huevos View Post
    Except that we have three to choose from now as hit and expertise are identical and there is no actual choice there. The only purpose they serve is as a stat sink, which has no interesting effect whatsoever.

    We would have been fine with the four, versatility feels like their rushed attempt to come up with a fifth stat simply because they want five, not because it's better for the game. I want to feel the effect of stat gain rotationally, and you won't with versatility.

    If they itemize gear so it's rare and not on BiS, fine, but I'll be pretty disappointed if it ever shows up on tier pieces or if there are no alternatives.
    IMO it'll almost certainly appear on some tier. The idea is not to make sure there is a piece of gear for every slot with the exact stats you want on it.

    Optimal just means the best gear available, not the best gear possible.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Eh, I don't think that would really work in WoW. People would just bitch about reforging being back but with a pain in the ass RNG barrier. Also, they don't want you having to go back to town to reforge every time you get new gear.
    When are people ever not bitching? Besides, if you have to reforge it to use it, it probably isn't an upgrade anyway. Maybe even limit it to just minor stats.

  14. #34
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    What I'm saying is, they don't want a middle ground, they deliberately made it suboptimal.

    Basically, its something you get on some pieces of gear but you try to minimise if you can. Unless you're building a set for some other purpose (assuming it doesn't effectively turn out to be a tank stat).
    I agree that is what they want to do, and I think its bad design. Our different specs are always going to prioritize different stats, making certain pieces better or worse depending on our spec, as well as if we get to a specific balance that we want between our stats. That's fine and I think that works well. If you have a fire mage and a frost mage in the raid and crit item drops, its good for 1 of them and not optimal for the other. Or if you're a 10 man and you only have a frost mage at least he might be getting a piece good for his off-spec. But fast forward to WoD where anytime an item drops with Versatility - now its just sub-optimal for both of them. To me that's just dumb. Not every drop has to be great for everyone, but designing ones that will always not be as good for everyone doesn't make sense.

    It is a boring stat and they have plainly stated they want it to be not as good as anything else for people, so why even have it in the game? What purpose does it serve besides making it so we have 5 secondary stats?
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  15. #35
    I definitely feel as thought Versatility is a placeholder until / unless they can come up with another stat.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    I would argue Hit and Expertise being "different" stats when they both did essentially the same thing: Allowed you to hit more.

    ESPECIALLY for casters, Hit and Expertise were the same, as were Hit, Expertise, and Spirit for Boomies, Shadow Priests, and Elementals.

    Doesn't matter that they achieved same goal, point I was making is they are trying to keep 5 secondary's for pures. For example in WoD I could get a neck with Expertise/Mastery and a Ring with Hit/Haste and a ring with crit/haste, from Blizzard's viewpoint you are using 5 secondary's.

    What I suspect is that they have found 5 gives them the optimal number of secondary stats to create gear for a given tier.

    Said pures above because it looks like tanks and heals are at 6 secondary's. Hybrids, makes my head spin a bit trying to figure out all those mixes.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by gallamann View Post
    Said pures above because it looks like tanks and heals are at 6 secondary's. Hybrids, makes my head spin a bit trying to figure out all those mixes.
    Replace pures with DDs and you're done. All DPS specs use the same secondaries in WoD. Same for tanks and healers respectively.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by gallamann View Post
    What I suspect is that they have found 5 gives them the optimal number of secondary stats to create gear for a given tier.
    Makes a lot of sense otherwise we would see lots of duplicate gear. Isn't the formula for permutations something like x! divided by (x-y)! where y is number of stats on a gear piece and x is the number of stats?

  19. #39
    I think it should be x!/(y!*(x-y)!)(i.e. x choose y), since order does not matter. (e.g. haste and crit is the same as crit and haste)

    Also keep in mind that you only count secondaries for this.


    BTW, this means that with 5 secondaries, they can make 10 different stat combinations with 2 stats(5!/(2*3!) = 5*4/2 = 10).
    Last edited by huth; 2014-06-13 at 05:28 PM.

  20. #40
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gallamann View Post
    What I suspect is that they have found 5 gives them the optimal number of secondary stats to create gear for a given tier.
    Hmm, that would make sense actually. I still don't like anything about what they are doing with Versatility, but that does help me understand why they may have done it.
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