Alpha testers come here ! (Priest discussion)

[Deleted]

Why would one ever spec CoP outside of raids? It's just a weaker PoH that ignores group boundaries, or am I overlooking something?

'Cause even in 5-man you could find urself in the situation in which you wanna cast another AoE heal beside CoH. CoP is more mana efficient compared to PoH in any case (not to mention it is more than Halo too) and benefits from Serendipity buff.

HN is useless unless there are like 10+ people stacked, which also won't happen in most circumstances. Obviously, you don't even need this on the action bar in 5mans.

Actually you do 'cause Disc has no another cheap AoE heal.

[WoM] Still much better than CoP for 5mans.

Not really, 'cause you cannot know when exactly you will need that extra output in your AoE heal. What if you need it NOW and you still do not have enough stacks? You throw around random heals to reach 10?

[Zka]

'Cause even in 5-man you could find urself in the situation in which you wanna cast another AoE heal beside CoH. CoP is more mana efficient compared to PoH in any case.

Unless it was changed since I made my calculations, CoP was higher HPM only if it was getting near the 100% bonus. (that means healing a very low target)
But I'm not sure you want to care about HPM in a 5man, you're the only healer there, HPS (in other words: your time) is the king most of the time to save people from dying.

[Deleted]

Hmmm disc is 25% less healing than holy? How did you come up with that value . Most heals actually heal for similar amounts or more if disc has AA up. It is just the spell selection for holy that accounts for the extra throughput and its not 25%.

WoM for holy is more like a 5% increase in healing without the 2set. With the new set bonuses however WoM is absolutely mandatory for holy no other talent is even remotely viable compared to WoM, simply because having an extra PoM per 15s means on average 2-3 extra serendipity procs per 15s when damage is ticking, which simply can't be ignored both for HPS and for mana saving.

Not really, 'cause you cannot know when exactly you will need that extra output in your AoE heal. What if you need it NOW and you still do not have enough stacks? You throw around random heals to reach 10?

You keep your renews up on everyone and refresh them with BH/serenity. When you get high aoe damage you use BH/PoH to keep your renews alive and reduce the mana cost of PoH. It is more HPS than using CoP instead because you will lose your renews that way, which are ticking for nearly as much as an extra PoH. BH will also use up your WoM proc. Currently as far as I can tell CoP does not interact with serendipity or with DI making it a rather poor talent. Even if that is fixed you will only take CoP in raids, since on a 5 man group you never have a reason to use CoP. Renew/serenity/BH/PoH/CoH/PoM/FDCL/WoM provides you with more throughput in any situation you can possibly encounter in a 5 man.

[Deleted]

I do not agree, you can still count on DI procs for instant PoM (which is certainly better than being forced to use 10 healing spells to cast an extra PoM). If I have to pick a lvl 100 talent, personally I would go for CoP in most situations.

I also remind you that - as I already said - Serendipity interacts with CoP too and it also procs DI, actually. Compared to PoH, CoP has a shorter range, but:
- Costs less mana (you can cast 3 CoP for 2 PoH);
- Heals for less but can increase for 100% more based on how injured the target is;
- Has no group limitation.

Make your own conclusions.

[Jimjam38]

Incase you missed it, he said in a 5man. Group limitations do not apply in a 5man.

(which is certainly better than being forced to use 10 healing spells to cast an extra PoM).

Being forced to cast 10 healing spells in order to get an extra pom? Um, excuse me? Forced? What, werent you planing on healing otherwise? Did you plan on having a picnic instead? But srsly, What kind of shitty healing tallent FORCES you into healing to make use of it? You know what guys, I think that's the final straw, I'm done with wow, time to unsub until they learn that they can't make talents that provide new mechanics and interesting dynamics and expect to get away with it.

Fuk

[Deleted]

I really don't see why people have a problem with WOM...
- It goes well with holy's gameplay : the spells you cast are fueling another spell of our rather wide toolkit ;
- It's an actual HPS increase ;
- It enhances our mobility ;
- Cherry on top, it makes our T16 bonus OP.

Between this and COP, I really don't know which is better but I really think there's no current clear winner HPS wise : it will certainly depend on encounter design.
But to me COP is certainly less interesting : ZOMG it removes PoH group limitation !!! Big deal, any priest who has been playing for a while is now used to that kind of crap. I can arrange groups in my sleep, especially in 20man...

[rylai21]

CoP has been rather terrible all beta. The only fight I'd remotely consider taking it on is Butcher... and even that is pretty iffy. Most certainly not in a 5 man, ever.

[Well]

The point is that our T100 talents look like that:

Choice A)

Holy: OH LOOK. IT'S A POH WHICH IGNORES GROUPS BUT IS WORSE
Disc: OH LOOK. ANOTHER SHIELD

Choice B)

Holy & Disc: OH LOOK. PASSIVE HEALING FOR A T100 TALENT. HOW INTERESTING.

Choice C)

Holy & Disc: AFTER ALL THAT, YOU DON'T MIND US GIVING YOU A TALENT THAT ACTUALLY HURTS YOUR PERFORMANCE, RIGHT?

As perfectly illustrated above, our talents are poor mechanicly-wise. You cannot possibly introduce a "new" spell in an expansion that does something that players have been complaining about for YEARS, and even make it weaker than the actual spell. WoM is a FUCKING JOKE for a talent. And shadow has no options in T90.

[Floopa]

.. WoM is insane for holy

what are you guys talking about.

[rylai21]

WoM is decent, and will be even stronger with the set pieces (albeit, 100% passive and boring as $&*@ for a lvl 100). I'm not sure I'd say "insane" but it will be quite good. Now if you wanna talk about an actual insane lvl 100 talent just look at Germination. 15%-20% of druids output on some parses.

[Deleted]

"Forced" 'cause what happens if you need that extra PoM let's say, NOW, and you got only 5-6 stacks? Does it really look to you like a talent that actively affects your playstyle, your being a good level 100 healer? Do not take everything literally - especially when not talking to an English mothertongue - just try to understand what one is pointing out. WoM could be nice as a pvp/pve set bonus, if they wanted us to use it at level 100. I stress it again, it's ridiculous to get it as an ultimate talent.

- - - Updated - - -

Incase you missed it, he said in a 5man. Group limitations do not apply in a 5man.

In case you missed it, I was talking about the spell changes brought from the talent.

- - - Updated - - -

As perfectly illustrated above, our talents are poor mechanicly-wise. You cannot possibly introduce a "new" spell in an expansion that does something that players have been complaining about for YEARS, and even make it weaker than the actual spell. WoM is a FUCKING JOKE for a talent. And shadow has no options in T90.

Exactly what I mean too. The only difference is that I do not find CoP so bad, I've seen worse from Blizz.

[Well]

.. WoM is insane for holy

what are you guys talking about.

Yeah, we can get all our spells taken away, and given a passive that heals every player in a 1000 yard radius for 1000% of their max hp every half a second. That would be also insane. But would you like to play that? The point is not about the numbers, it's about the spell that is not even there, and you will barely, if ever, notice it.

[Floopa]

Yeah, we can get all our spells taken away, and given a passive that heals every player in a 1000 yard radius for 1000% of their max hp every half a second. That would be also insane. But would you like to play that? The point is not about the numbers, it's about the spell that is not even there, and you will barely, if ever, notice it.

good thing saving grace is awesome then?

i dont even know how priests can complain, saving grace and WoD are awesome talents.

[Deleted]

good thing saving grace is awesome then?

i dont even know how priests can complain, saving grace and WoD are awesome talents.

And u play...?

[Darkener]

.. WoM is insane for holy

what are you guys talking about.

I think the point is that WoM is a lousy level 100 talent, it's even weaker than our similar 75 talent. 1 PoM every 16.5-30s is not amazing. Worse, WoM gets applied to a target you just cast a direct heal on. Wow, amazing, the guy I just healed and is now getting 6s of Echo of Light healing also gets a PoM that will probably - expire. There isn't even a way to tell how much extra healing you get from WoM because it is not a separate spell in the logs. Poop talent is poop.

The only time WoM was exciting was when it interacted with Atonement and proc'd from a single Holy Fire. PoMs shooting out everywhere. Oh that was fun times on the Beta back then. Now? WoM is not fun.

And before the expected "oh, but with the Tier bonus ..." nonsense, tier bonuses should not be required to make a talent viable or fun to use. Yes, it's great when certain talents work with bonuses ... but they still have to be good without them.

[anon5123]

WoM is not "insane" by any stretch of the mind. A free PoM every 15-25 seconds is not "insane" at all. I don't even understand how one would come to that conclusion.

If it capped at like, 4 or maybe 5 stacks, yeah, it would be pretty good. But a free PoM every 10 casts is very mediocre. Being a level-100 talent drags it down into "bad" territory.

[Floopa]

what are you comparing your lvl 100 talents to? paladins see a 2-5% healing increase from their lvl 100 talent (the best 1), MWs see a 1.8% healing increase from their lvl 100 talent (the best 1), shamans see a negligible healing increase from their level 100 talent, disc gains a lot from CoW but the spec is probably the 4th strongest spec atm so i don't think it's an issue.

the point is WoM/saving grace are stronger than the majority of the lvl 100 talents from other healing specs. resto druids are an exception because like holy priests they're completely overtuned- borderline op on beta. WoM doesn't need a buff. if anything the holy priest toolkit overall needs a nerf, and comparing WoM to ToF which can be kept up 50%~ of the time (with bad play) is really silly, it just outlines how strong the spec is even further.

call me naive, i just don't see how holy priests can complain. their lvl 100 talents are by no means horrible (like every other healer apart from resto druids experience) and on top of that the spec is 2nd strongest in power overall- first being druid (duh) and third being paladin, but the 'power gap' between holy priests and holy paladins is a country mile.

[anon5123]

what are you comparing your lvl 100 talents to?

Level 90 talents.

All of them are infinitely better than any of the level 100 talents. That's....kinda bad. The new, top-tier talents should feel powerful, not crappy.

I'm not saying every single tier of talents after 90 has to be big throughput abilities, but the ones Blizzard has given us are really shitty.

Group-free PoH vs Cascade
Free PoM every 20-30 seconds vs Divine Star
Crappy instant single-target healing-crippling heal VS Halo

See what I'm saying? The level 100 talents feel crappy, underpowered, and generally unimaginitive compared to the 90 talents.

the point is WoM/saving grace are stronger than the majority of the lvl 100 talents from other healing specs.

Except a free PoM every 20-30 seconds is not very strong at all, and Saving Grace is broken in its current state because using it even once, cripples your healing for 10 seconds.

Hell, Divine Insight provides infinitely more PoM's than Words of Mending does. That is really sad.

call me naive, i just don't see how holy priests can complain. their lvl 100 talents are by no means horrible

It's not that they're *BAD*, just very...mediocre. In a perfect world, talents should feel like all three choices are good, and you have to choose just one of them.

In the case of Priest level 100 talents, one of them is broken, the other is uninteresting, and the third is boring and weak. I don't want to choose any of them.

[Herasy]

News flash from new build. Saving Grace now has a 1.5 cast time, debuff lasts 8 seconds and has been tuned to heal less.
I guess it sucks now?

[appro]

News flash from new build. Saving Grace now has a 1.5 cast time, debuff lasts 8 seconds and has been tuned to heal less.
I guess it sucks now?

it was never that good to begin with, it was situationally better that its crappy alternatives.
Now it sucks even more.