WoD Beta Demonology Discussion

[Baconeggcheese]

Iron maidens a horrible example as that fight lends itself great to destruction in my experience. Hell I 10 manned mythic kargath and did well with destruction when the bombs were being concentrated on 10 people, if you know how to move in gcds its absolutely fine.

It's the big movement where this becomes an issue, and demo will absolutely outperform affliction in those circumstances.

We agree demo doesn't sustain aoe well, the thing is the fights where you want sustained aoe are few and far between. Typically you want burst aoe or passive cleave.

Cataclysm is a great example because it fits perfectly in demos kit and doesn't really take away from it in a way that it does for destruction and affliction. Giving up chaotic resources in the other two specs for it sucks, giving up demon bolt... well we didn't take demon bolt in the first place.

The only thing it doesn't do well is sustained aoe. This is all subject to change for the coming tuning passes and what have you, but if they don't change the ratios and they get demo on par with the other two it'll be the choice for most fights.

Dunno how the t17 bonuses might affect all this.

[Crisius]

Define 'well', and tell me you didn't do it with charred remains, purified bindings and cheesy mastery itemisation.

Yeah, for a fight like the Schwarzenegger twins demonology would be far better than destruction, but so will anything else - destruction is completely neutered on the beta and for prolonged movement shouldn't be compared to anything else (part perhaps elemental). If anything I'd say demonology should get the aforementioned buff, affliction should stay roughly as is and destruction should be buffed to compensate for its stationary nature, in a way that doesn't make it even more retarded on sustained aoe.

There's always going to be a choice for most fights. Right now it's affliction. Perhaps I have a personal vendetta against affliction because the playstyle hasn't appealed to me for a long time, or because demonology is my all-time favorite specc, but I find it silly to say that demonology should perform subpar to the other two specs when warlocks, part shadow priests, are the worst DPS on the beta currently. I wouldn't mind if demonology was actually strong for a tier, and not because of a trinket.

Perhaps, relative to the other warlock specs, a 30% buff is much. In the grand scheme of things though, the fact is demonology would still be on the bottom, and the buff is warranted. If you feel like the other specs need to be stronger because they lack things demonology has, then you should rather look at them being tuned appropriately.

[Baconeggcheese]

Define 'well', and tell me you didn't do it with charred remains, purified bindings and cheesy mastery itemisation.

I ALWAYS do it with charred remains, I don't really see the point in playing destruction with a burst aoe talent. Though I have heard of people doing that on the very same fight to great success. Cleave has been destructions niche the whole xpac, I dunno why this would be surprising on that fight?

but I find it silly to say that demonology should perform subpar to the other two specs when warlocks, part shadow priests, are the worst DPS on the beta currently. I wouldn't mind if demonology was actually strong for a tier, and not because of a trinket.

I really don't mind doing the 1 spec per tier thing either, my issue is it wouldn't be a 1 tier thing with how well rounded the spec is unless they break something else.

I never said demo "should be subpar" I'm not sure where you're getting that, I'm saying unless they do something serious with the ratios / mechanics OR tune it sub-par its current mechanics would allow it to be on par if not outperform the other specs on a majority of encounters...

[Crisius]

I ALWAYS do it with charred remains, I don't really see the point in playing destruction with a burst aoe talent. Though I have heard of people doing that on the very same fight to great success. Cleave has been destructions niche the whole xpac, I dunno why this would be surprising on that fight?

Charred Remains by itself isn't a big deal, and if you actually used it on Maidens and performed well while being locked to those long casts, you should be commended for it. Using it with unintended amounts of mastery and a 20% critical damage modifier, on the other hand, easily leads to results that do not reflect the actual state of it.

I really don't mind doing the 1 spec per tier thing either, my issue is it wouldn't be a 1 tier thing with how well rounded the spec is unless they break something else.

I never said demo "should be subpar" I'm not sure where you're getting that, I'm saying unless they do something serious with the ratios / mechanics OR tune it sub-par its current mechanics would allow it to be on par if not outperform the other specs on a majority of encounters...

Each specc would have its uses if destruction was brought up enough to actually compete on fights with a bit of movement. Thing is, if you're measuring how much damage demonology should do from the viability of the other two specs right now, everyone is going to have a bad time. Heck, if you'd measure how much stand-still DPS demonology should do by how well it performs in comparison to destruction on a fight like the Schwarzenegger twins, you'd be right on the spot with the current tuning. Relative to other classes though, there'd be no point in bringing that warlock at all.

There's no denying the fact that demonology needs a 25-30% buff from its current state on the beta. Tuning directed primarily at Demonbolt, Soul Fire, and to a lesser extent, Shadow Bolt - all single-target abilities which if anything would work to further hinder its movement.

If the other specs need extra tuning aswell to further the gap between themselves and demonology, that is a discussion for another thread.

[Brusalk]

Charred Remains by itself isn't a big deal, and if you actually used it on Maidens and performed well while being locked to those long casts, you should be commended for it. Using it with unintended amounts of mastery and a 20% critical damage modifier, on the other hand, easily leads to results that do not reflect the actual state of it.

A fact I had to explain thoroughly and many times to my guildies when we were raiding beta LFR yesterday and a random warlock with full gems and warforged PBOI was blowing my level 100 premade out of the water. :/

[Baconeggcheese]

Charred Remains by itself isn't a big deal, and if you actually used it on Maidens and performed well while being locked to those long casts, you should be commended for it. Using it with unintended amounts of mastery and a 20% critical damage modifier, on the other hand, easily leads to results that do not reflect the actual state of it.

I've said many times in these threads we frequent I have many different locks I test on with every setup... I know these are the mmo champ forums but I am not naive to the cheese that goes on and how it effects results...

I don't get why you think that that's a feat, there's not a ton of movement on that fight until the bombs start and there's absolutely time to get chaosbolts off... they did y'know shorten its cast time and all. As well as maintaining immolate on 3 targets and using havoc on CD. Beyond conflag and RoF.

There's no denying the fact that demonology needs a 25-30% buff from its current state on the beta. Tuning directed primarily at Demonbolt, Soul Fire, and to a lesser extent, Shadow Bolt - all single-target abilities which if anything would work to further hinder its movement.

If the other specs need extra tuning aswell to further the gap between themselves and demonology, that is a discussion for another thread.

Yup, no one in the history of this conversation ever said that it doesn't need a buff so I dunno why that continues to need restating...

and again... my entire point is that the spec needs its ratios changed so that it has a niche because right now its just *I do everything except sustained aoe*.

If we just brought up the current ratios so that it was competitive, it would just be played all the time. They need to figure out what its niche is and adjust accordingly.

[Gihelle]

You're making that same mistake so many none Warlocks that come in here make by confusing performance with fun.

I dunno, I would be fine with not having as much fun as long as I'm performing fine (I hated ToT demo, for instance. Entire spec trapped around a trinket ICD was as bad as Doomguards in Firelands).

As of the moment, we lack in both departments.

[evertonbelmontt]

Honestly, Demonbolt doing 150% damage feels very weak. Cataclysm does 750% spellpower, AoE effect while applying dots, and let us boost up our fury to spend it in other ways.

But I fear the only buff Demonbolt is getting the next few patchs is nerfs to Cataclysm.

[bio347]

Well, Demonbolt is affected by meta-mastery, and Cataclysm isn't, so a strict spellpower comparison is misleading at best. You're also expected to cast, give or take, three DBs per Cata (2 DBs every 40s to 1 Cata every 60s). It may need a bit of a buff, but they're not worlds apart on a single target.

Multi-target is another story, of course.

[evertonbelmontt]

Well, Demonbolt is affected by meta-mastery, and Cataclysm isn't, so a strict spellpower comparison is misleading at best. You're also expected to cast, give or take, three DBs per Cata (2 DBs every 40s to 1 Cata every 60s). It may need a bit of a buff, but they're not worlds apart on a single target.

Multi-target is another story, of course.

Are you sure? Right now I logged in on beta and mastery says it increases damage of ToC, CW, Doom, SF and Immolation Aura while on meta.

[Baconeggcheese]

Are you sure? Right now I logged in on beta and mastery says it increases damage of ToC, CW, Doom, SF and Immolation Aura while on meta.

It's intended to be, according to celestalon a while back. Dunno if they ever actually implemented it.

[Dutchlock]

DB is suppose to Scale with Meta Mastery and will be fixed soon. However Cata will out preform DB Single tar unless it is changed or you have a High amount of Mastery. Something you should note is even with the way it currently is DB will provide the best burst in those Must burst spot's I.E. Spine

[cauzt1cz]

I've just recently got beta access and I've gotta say, demo just feels like crap right now. Which is pretty demoralizing since it's my favorite spec and I haven't really played it since cata. I've been maining a lock since ulduar and it's been by far my favorite mmo class to date.

I do realize it's just beta and the premade 100 gear is pretty trashy compared to the stuff I have now at 90. But, it still just feels too slow and clunky. DB is slightly confusing, DemServ at this point seems like a bad cosmetic talent for a dps loss, and I've yet to try cataclysm. As of this build is cata or DB the go to talent?

I'd love to contribute some knowledge, but I'm just now playing the beta and I'm a bit behind the pack.

[Jessicka]

Demo is so horribly tuned at this point, no one knows anything. Right now you DoT up, then fill up on Fury with Drain Life, then empty it on Touch of Chaos for best results. I think Cataclysm represents the best 100 talent right now, but I'm not sure, I think that can be questionable too as I've not tried it for a while and it used to cost Fury for each Doom applied when used in Meta - if that's still the case, then it just fucks you over on AoE rather than adding anything.

To describe it as broken is generous.

[cauzt1cz]

I was excited for WoD demo at first. But, now it just looks as if I'm going to be stuck playing destruction again. I love destruction as equally as demo. But, I want to play demo again without being a liability to my guild

[pharix]

Demo is so horribly tuned at this point, no one knows anything. Right now you DoT up, then fill up on Fury with Drain Life, then empty it on Touch of Chaos for best results. I think Cataclysm represents the best 100 talent right now, but I'm not sure, I think that can be questionable too as I've not tried it for a while and it used to cost Fury for each Doom applied when used in Meta - if that's still the case, then it just fucks you over on AoE rather than adding anything.

To describe it as broken is generous.

well that's silly. at least you won't die with all that drain life!

[Unknowndiv]

DB is suppose to Scale with Meta Mastery and will be fixed soon. However Cata will out preform DB Single tar unless it is changed or you have a High amount of Mastery. Something you should note is even with the way it currently is DB will provide the best burst in those Must burst spot's I.E. Spine

Well, my thought on this is DB's burstability is worse than Cata's. Cata deals 750% SP in 3 seconds cast time. To deal about the same amount of damage with DB you need to chain cast it 4 times (8 seconds, 780% SP if I'm not mistaken) and it will cost you 800 Fury.
There is hope for mastery. Caster mastery buffs Cata by (1+X), meta mastery buffs DB by (1+X)*(1+2X) and at some point it will be 1 cata ~= 3 DB (X must be ~39% for that).
P.S. Meta mastery buffs DB's damage on Beta, what do you mean by "DB is suppose to Scale with Meta Mastery"?

[eScar95]

Well, I tested with a few Warlocks on PTR the other day. Demo seems to be the underperforming spec in PvP AGAIN. Affliction just absolutely wrecks the other two specs. So, yeah Demo is still trash.

[Antimals]

Celestalon has tweeted that Demonology's damage will be coming back up..

[evertonbelmontt]

And I tweeted back "When?"

Knowing Blizzard, this change could be in 6.2 and it would still be good, because Celestalol didn't say when. My point is that we have no assurance based on that tweet.
Look at demonic servitude. They said it would be a DPS increase, right now it is a DPS decrease in certain situations. How long have they released this talent? 1 year I think?

We need answers that actually address the problems/concerns we have, not empty promises.
I may sound desperate, but we have only 4 weeks before 6.0 and less than 8 before 6.1 comes, and everyone is saying there's still a lot of bugs and things that need to be adjusted. If things keep going this way, this is what is gonna happen:

Patch 6.0 launchs, no effective tunning on a lot of specs (basically only ST tunning).
Patch 6.1 launchs, more polished tunning. Weeks after that, we start seeing major hotfixes. This is bad for the health of the game overall.