Making Alliance interesting

[Icaras]

The Alliance is already interesting, Horde fan(boys/girls) just overestimate their faction. The same sad reason they feel a need to scream horde phrases at public wow events like Blizzcon, they're trying to hard to "prove" some point about the faction.

[Kootur]

The problem is all the alliance centric lore and factions are made "neutral" so horde can interact with them. If they weren't making alliance shallow for the horde players the alliance would rock.

[Littlepwny]

WC3 Tyrande was a self-centred, arrogant, catty little bitch who screwed up her own forces chasing shadows, then murdered Night Elves in Cold blood "Just because" She thought Illidan was needed.

She didn't go face to face with mutiny you deluded asshole, she killed Watchers who were not under her command.

Illidan was needed. Without his assistance the Burning Legion forces would have been significantly stronger. WCIII made it clear how strong this Tychondrius (and Cenarius for the orcs) was.

As for the Watchers, Tyrande Whisperwind is the leader of the Night Elves both in priesthood and in the military branch. The watchers fall directly under her jurisdiction and hence should have stood aside. Her actions were ambiguous during WCII I will admit but WoW has made it clear that when she speaks, people obey. Even in WCIIITFT Maiev is powerless to do anything against Tyrande other than complain about her 'betrayal'.



WCIII Tyrande was arrogant and cared for her people above anything else. That is what made her great and awesome. Not some shithead like Malfurion who could not care less about his own people.

[Deleted]

The Alliance is already interesting, Horde fan(boys/girls) just overestimate their faction. The same sad reason they feel a need to scream horde phrases at public wow events like Blizzcon, they're trying to hard to "prove" some point about the faction.

I disagree.

Then again, I can shout For Khaz'Modan because I don't play a Human like a pleb.

[Manabomb]

Step 1: make other leaders matter.

Varian bloody Wrynn being the high king of the Alliance sealed the deal on really any "not human" lore and this is the largest problem in the room. The "Alliance" shouldn't have a single ruler, king, whatever. It should be a council of each race involved with the cause, similar to how a lot of people theorized how the Horde should have become post Garrosh instead of 3-toe Vol' becoming the new dictator.

Step 2: The focus on Anduin is good, but needs to include more than just him.

Make Anduin gather a party. A stereotypical Night elf rogue girl, shady, shifty. A Dwarf shaman with a drinking addiction, a Draenei warrior that is generally a bit shadowy (make the story twist from there, and he/she is actually possessed by a demon, ect) a worgen druid with an addiction to study plant and animal life. These things would not only lighten up the mood, but would also bring character to the group as a party, rather than focus on just Anduin in general. (Bring back the days of Medivh, Lothar and Co. wandering Arathi and going on adventures.) (Also the races/classes I used are suggestions.)

Step 3: Give the Alliance a dark-side back bone.

Either artificially craft or turn some important lore characters into a darker side. Similar to how Benedictus turned evil in cataclysm, except that act not being utterly spoiled in a book and a lot more depth added in game as to why. I think that was cataclysms problem is general is that so much of the good character development happened in the novels instead of in game. The game should portray story telling just as well as the books, in my opinion, especially if you're going to portray the effect in game from the books causaility.

Step 4: We are not above the Horde.

Portray the Alliance going into alliances of convenience more often, coming toward a more thrashing and desperate feeling that reflects the story of the world. Example, westfall is in tatters, Elwynn and Redridge are being semi-invaded by black rock orcs, how and why is the Alliance as strong as it is? Was anyone else surprised to hear the Horde was winning the war in Pandaria, when the Alliance seemed to counter them at every turn, despite being in a tattered shape? It's these inconsistencies that really make the Alliance story questionable at best. Not to say the Horde is off the inconsistency wagon, but with the Alliance it seems much, much worse because of the above mentioned problems.

[Deleted]

Illidan was needed. Without his assistance the Burning Legion forces would have been significantly stronger. WCIII made it clear how strong this Tychondrius (and Cenarius for the orcs) was.

As for the Watchers, Tyrande Whisperwind is the leader of the Night Elves both in priesthood and in the military branch. The watchers fall directly under her jurisdiction and hence should have stood aside. Her actions were ambiguous during WCII I will admit but WoW has made it clear that when she speaks, people obey. Even in WCIIITFT Maiev is powerless to do anything against Tyrande other than complain about her 'betrayal'.



WCIII Tyrande was arrogant and cared for her people above anything else. That is what made her great and awesome. Not some shithead like Malfurion who could not care less about his own people.

Right, if you're not going to even attempt you learn the lore itself, how can we even discuss this?

Watchers were not under the priesthood of Elune's jurisdiction. They were Druidic Watchers who would later go on to form the Cenarion circle. HENCE why their prison is in the barrow downs, HENCE why their leader was a Keeper of the Grove. Tyrande has no business commanding a Keeper of the Grove. Maiev wasn't powerless, as quite clearly she could muster forces for her own personal vendetta.

WCII Tyrande was short sighted, vain and ignorant, who was so petty and callous she killed her own people for a gambit plan and then was surprised when NOT attacking the Undead didn't seem to work out well.

[Faroth]

No. They want a Tyrande who doesn't exist. The Tyrande people want is literally a lie they push through their own heads.

WC3 Tyrande was a self-centred, arrogant, catty little bitch who screwed up her own forces chasing shadows, then murdered Night Elves in Cold blood "Just because" She thought Illidan was needed.

She didn't go face to face with mutiny you deluded asshole, she killed Watchers who were not under her command.

.........see, Blizzard? See how many people don't even grasp the concept of the race's entire government and culture?

MATRIARCHAL THEOCRACY. YOU DO NOT QUESTION THE REPRESENTATIVE OF YOUR GODDESS MADE MANIFEST ON THE PLANET. (Take this with a grain of salt...since tone doesn't come across in text) >_<

That and WC III didn't spend all that much time on the narrative and nuances of the scenes. :P

[Littlepwny]

Right, if you're not going to even attempt you learn the lore itself, how can we even discuss this?

Watchers were not under the priesthood of Elune's jurisdiction. They were Druidic Watchers who would later go on to form the Cenarion circle. HENCE why their prison is in the barrow downs, HENCE why their leader was a Keeper of the Grove. Tyrande has no business commanding a Keeper of the Grove. Maiev wasn't powerless, as quite clearly she could muster forces for her own personal vendetta.

At first, volunteers from the Sisterhood of Elune made up the Watchers, and so the organization was composed solely of night elf women. As their duties were broadened, the Watchers accepted night elf women from other professions. A mixture of volunteerism and military promotions caused the organization's size to grow somewhat, although the Watchers remained a relatively small group. Illidan Stormrage killed almost all of the Watchers after the Third War, at which point the group ceased to exist.

Now, I will admit that there was one keeper of the grove, Califax, but Maiev whom is a high ranking priestess of Elune was in overall command. Tyrande is the Leader of the Night Elves, period.

[Faroth]

Now, I will admit that there was one keeper of the grove, Califax, but Maiev which is a high ranking priestess of Elune was in command. Tyrande is the Leader of the Night Elves, period.

Ah, I forgot Maiev was in line to become the high priestess rather than Tyrande.

[Deleted]

No. They want a Tyrande who doesn't exist. The Tyrande people want is literally a lie they push through their own heads.

WC3 Tyrande was a self-centred, arrogant, catty little bitch who screwed up her own forces chasing shadows, then murdered Night Elves in Cold blood "Just because" She thought Illidan was needed.

She didn't go face to face with mutiny you deluded asshole, she killed Watchers who were not under her command.

You're thinking in modern terms. You need to think in medieval terms. Tyrande got to the prison, she is the voice of Elune and the night elf leader of Azeroth, the watchers were all under her command for the simple reason that the night elf leadership style is a theocracy, like Vatican if you please. And she got to the prison and basically thought "Illidan is strong, plus, there's a bunch of watchers here who could help too, I'll get them to join the war". And then she entered the prison and prison guard #234 basically said "bug off, we don't care about the legion, and you're not our leader" and attacked her.
Tyrande, first and foremost, is the ruler of all night elves. Therefor, some random watchers attacking her when she ordered them to free Illidan and also join against the Legion is a revolt, a mutiny. Now, of course, Tyrande could have imprisoned the watchers... oh, wait, she needed all the manpower to fight the Legion, she couldn't do that. She could have left them be of course... showing she's a weak leader and having others desert her, for who would follow someone weak against the scary mighty Legion when they can hide in caves?

No, Tyrande did the right thing. She went to get Illidan and the watchers to bolster her forces but she was attacked. She was dealing with a revolt of her people and couldn't show herself to be a weak leader for others would have deserted her. So she killed the ones who disobeyed her order.

[Sassafrass]

The Alliance is in desperate need for real leaders. Its current leadership is weak and incompetent.


We need leaders like Lothar back. We need Uther and Turalyon, Alleria and (WC2's) Khadgar. Hell, I'd even take Garithos. At least he would have done something after Theramore's destruction, unlike Jaina.

It'd be nice if we could have the old Night Elves back too. Everything is wrong with the Alliance right now, it's no wonder there's no pride in it.
Also, Anduin needs to die. He is a disgrace to that name, little naive brat.

[Sliippy]

We could just annex them. When they're part of the Horde (a lesser part of course) they can bask in the wonderfulness of our faction too!

On a serious note, I've never liked alliance, even when I played it because of IRL friends or for lack of a horde guild. I dont see anyway for them to make it interesting enough for me to want to play. Even the npc's annoy me. They're so polite and PC. It's like going to US Bank or something.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

"Make Alliance more like Horde to make them interesting to ME" is what I am reading in this thread. I find a lot of the Alliance lore interesting. Not that I am saying its perfect or amazing or above change. But still..

Also sick of this "We had a Horde bad guy recently, so we need more Alliance bad guys!" shit...

[Jaymega]

Not strictly Alliance, these Draenei are seperate. You can rest assured that any and all involvement of the actual Alliance will be Stormwind footmen in Human bases, plastered with blue lion symbols, with about two token Night Elves and maybe a Gnome standing around.

To be honest, I wouldn't even care. Simply having a race that is not an Orc have some story developement will be nice. At this point I just don't like Orcs. It is that simple. I am sick of damn Orcs. I don't care what "faction" they are a part of, whether they are good or bad or what they got going on. I don't want to see them at all. I am done on Orcs. The Lord of the rings and just about every other fantasy Genre was enough to fill me, but WoW shoved so much Orc down my throat that I never EVER want to even hear of them again.

Hell, I'll take a troll expansion and deal with teh Horde story even more. I just do not want to even see an Orc anymore.

[Wolfheart9]

"Make Alliance more like Horde to make them interesting to ME" is what I am reading in this thread. I find a lot of the Alliance lore interesting. Not that I am saying its perfect or amazing or above change. But still..

Also sick of this "We had a Horde bad guy recently, so we need more Alliance bad guys!" shit...

Name me something Greymane has done since the Worgen starter area. I don't even care if it's interesting, literally anything. If he coughed once, that would count. (I understand the irony of him getting sick in WoD)

Swap Varian's personality with Tyrande, what do you get? No change, they're the same person. Our leaders don't have unique personality, they beat it out of them. Tyrande was SUPPOSED to be a tribal leader that was a masterful tactician, leader of her people, which they then gave her a different accent, and let Malfurion (At the time females had near full rule of the Nightelf cultue) tell her to hush, and she just took it.

Greymane could be a savage (lawl) leader for the Alliance, go back to the worgen roots instead of human 2.0 with fish and chips.

These are the sorts of things most people want. Not dark brooding corrupt crap, just make them have their own nitch like the Horde leaders do.

[Jaymega]

"Make Alliance more like Horde to make them interesting to ME" is what I am reading in this thread. I find a lot of the Alliance lore interesting. Not that I am saying its perfect or amazing or above change. But still..

Also sick of this "We had a Horde bad guy recently, so we need more Alliance bad guys!" shit...

You should probably read more than a couple posts then. What I have read (and my opinion as well) is that the Alliance is unique and interesting in its own right. The problem is that Blizzard basically doesn't give a damn about them and keeps writing them as generic goody two shoes HUMANS While the other races are just there to compliment king chin. And our leaders? They may as well not exist. Varian is everyone's leader as far as Blizz cares.

And in spite of all that the humans exist only to help progress a Horde Story. So what we have is a hierarchy.

1: Orcs Orcs Orcs
2: The rest of the Horde
3: Humans to help the Horde story.
4: Reskinned humans that players can play as.

What we are asking for is

1: Horde races = Alliance races in regards to development in game.
2: Let's not stroke it to Orcs for another expansion and at least focus on another race. Even Horde races.
3: Let's have Alliance leaders be more than just an NPC that stand next to Varian.


Seriously. How is fixing the park in SW still on the backburner?Why do I know half of Thrall's life story from Alliance gameplay and I have to do outside research to know who the hell Prophet Velen is?? Why do Gnomes exist for the sole purpose of evening out faction races? I could go on but I'm sleepy.

Name me something Greymane has done since the Worgen starter area. I don't even care if it's interesting, literally anything. If he coughed once, that would count. (I understand the irony of him getting sick in WoD)

Funny thing. I was thinking of him as I read that other post. Other than standing next to King Chin I know nothing of the guys actions. And like I said above. I didn't even know who Velen was for the longest. I PLAY DRAENEI and love them. And I had no idea who Velen was for 80% of my time playing this game.

But I can tell you that Thrall is a Shaman. He is the first Orc Shaman in a long while. He is married to Aggra and they are having babies. He has blue eyes which is apparently special. he was the orc leader but gave it up to Garrosh so he can do some soul searching. Etc etc.

And I had no idea who my faction leader was -_-

[Deleted]

MATRIARCHAL THEOCRACY. YOU DO NOT QUESTION THE REPRESENTATIVE OF YOUR GODDESS MADE MANIFEST ON THE PLANET. (Take this with a grain of salt...since tone doesn't come across in text) >_<

Oh dear fucking god. We have one of THESE retards.

Here is a hint. Night Elf Society was not a Matriarchal society. It was a Society split entire down the middle with two different theologies peacefully coexisting.

Tyrande was the leader of the Sentinels and the Priesthood of Elune. This was the "Matriarchal" side people saw, these were the women who were not bound by druidic code, those who watched over Kalimdor.

What YOU forget and what EVERY Night elf fanboy/girl seems to forget is how much pull Malfurion had and how the Druidic Sect was Just as large and just as important to Night Elven Society was.

Tyrande didn't command the Druids, she had no sway over them, the dryads or the Keepers of the Grove, these acted entirely under Cenarious and to a lesser extent Malfurion's leadership.

It's why MALFURION is needed to be awakened for the rest of the druids to rally, and it's why the Watchers, who are commanded by the Druidic sect, are within a Barrow Den, with a Keeper of the Grove as it's leader. It's why Maiev gives Tyrande the finger every time they meet.

Because the Watchers were not the Sentinels, they were not there to be commanded by the priesthood of Elune, they were there to defend the druids important assets.

Learn

Your

Lore

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You're thinking in modern terms. You need to think in medieval terms. Tyrande got to the prison, she is the voice of Elune and the night elf leader of Azeroth, the watchers were all under her command for the simple reason that the night elf leadership style is a theocracy, like Vatican if you please. And she got to the prison and basically thought "Illidan is strong, plus, there's a bunch of watchers here who could help too, I'll get them to join the war". And then she entered the prison and prison guard #234 basically said "bug off, we don't care about the legion, and you're not our leader" and attacked her.
Tyrande, first and foremost, is the ruler of all night elves. Therefor, some random watchers attacking her when she ordered them to free Illidan and also join against the Legion is a revolt, a mutiny. Now, of course, Tyrande could have imprisoned the watchers... oh, wait, she needed all the manpower to fight the Legion, she couldn't do that. She could have left them be of course... showing she's a weak leader and having others desert her, for who would follow someone weak against the scary mighty Legion when they can hide in caves?

No, Tyrande did the right thing. She went to get Illidan and the watchers to bolster her forces but she was attacked. She was dealing with a revolt of her people and couldn't show herself to be a weak leader for others would have deserted her. So she killed the ones who disobeyed her order.

No, you need to think in learning your bloody lore terms.

The Watchers didn't give a shit about Tyrande being the High priestess of Elune Because they were Druid run, and they really don't care when the High Priestess comes in demanding they release their most dangerous prisoner.

It's like the Pope demanding the Yorkshire Ripper being released in person, with a threat of force. You think that bastard isn't going to get mowed down?

[Florena]

Name me something Greymane has done since the Worgen starter area. I don't even care if it's interesting, literally anything. If he coughed once, that would count. (I understand the irony of him getting sick in WoD)

Swap Varian's personality with Tyrande, what do you get? No change, they're the same person. Our leaders don't have unique personality, they beat it out of them. Tyrande was SUPPOSED to be a tribal leader that was a masterful tactician, leader of her people, which they then gave her a different accent, and let Malfurion (At the time females had near full rule of the Nightelf cultue) tell her to hush, and she just took it.

Greymane could be a savage (lawl) leader for the Alliance, go back to the worgen roots instead of human 2.0 with fish and chips.

These are the sorts of things most people want. Not dark brooding corrupt crap, just make them have their own nitch like the Horde leaders do.

This would at least be tolerable if the worgen as a whole had SOMETHING to do. Take the goblins. Sure, what's his face the goblin leader hasn't really done anything since the end of the goblin zone. But the goblins themselves were well integrated into the horde and have a role to play in MoP through their tech and scenarios. As bad as the Draenei have had it, the worgen are even worse. At least Velen has 'a' appearance beyond BC.

Part of this stems from the fact they keep giving the horde established lore races with strong lore (blood elves/goblins) but give the alliance curveball races they don't seem to know what the hell to do with. Both draenei and worgen came with retcons and both they failed to incorporate into the alliance. While the blood elves continued to have a role in Wrath, were incorporated somewhat into the world more in Cata through the reliquiary in a few zones, and of course have a role to play in WoD. Goblins were well integrated into the horde war machine in Cata and into the story in MoP.

Draenei and Worgen? They get sparse token appearances at best. You see them in Lion's Landing but as generic npc guards/quest fodder. The role of the Draenei in Wrath was one shaman who sends you on a couple vision quests in howling fjord, and some draenei that want to help the aliance but are being stonewalled by a corrupt official in borean tundra. In Cata they have virtually zero expanded presence in the world beyond a bit in swamp of sorrows. In MoP they have Mishka I guess. In WoD they're finally going to get some love, after a three expansion dry spell. Worgen aren't much better. They get a few token appearances in Cata leveling zones but not nearly as well integrated as goblins into the overall horde war machine or presence, and like the draenei have absolutely nothing to do in MoP. And unlike the Draenei aren't likely to get too much love in WoD though who knows maybe that quest line about the sick worgen will actually go somewhere interesting. Probably not though.

[Littlepwny]

It's why MALFURION is needed to be awakened for the rest of the druids to rally, and it's why the Watchers, who are commanded by the Druidic sect, are within a Barrow Den, with a Keeper of the Grove as it's leader. It's why Maiev gives Tyrande the finger every time they meet.

Because the Watchers were not the Sentinels, they were not there to be commanded by the priesthood of Elune, they were there to defend the druids important assets.

Maiev, a priestess of Elune, was leader of the of the Watchers. Califax was her subordinate. Also, Malfurion knew about Tyrande's plan to release Illidan. They even split up before she goes inside the prison.

You should avoid calling peoples name, we are having a discussion.


PS: the Pope has no actual power, the Pope at 1500 AC did. Tyrande does.

[Dragon2K]

So, after reading countless threads about lack of alliance faction pride, blizzard favoring horde, all stories made about horde, I thought about why this is REALLY happening and what can be done about it.

I was always a horde player, but I'm not hating alliance, and I agree that wow storytelling as it is has a problem. The problem, however, isn't something petty like "oh, Metzen just likes horde better".

First, the problem is that alliance is not conceptually interesting. It's place in the story of Warcraft, since Orcs and Humans pretty much, was to be foil to the horde. Alliance started to counteract the horde invasion, and ever since it's role was purely reactionary. Think about it. Most interesting alliance characters in the lore were always the few rare individuals who actually took action and stepped "outside" the Alliance.

Second, it's filled with too many fantasy cliches, it's too "safe" and familiar. While Horde can play with cool ideas and styles, alliance always had a theme of "generic knights in shining armor". Built of fantasy cliches. The worst part is that instead of bringing cool ideas with different races added to the alliance later, writers instead basically imposed Alliance on those races. Night Elves were awesome and original in WC3, but as soon as they started developing them as part of the alliance, Night Elves lost backbone and became bland tree-hugging pacifists. I mean, even Night Elf zones start out cool, but get blander and blander the closer it gets to alliance overall story arch.

Third, too much focus on Humans. Horde can get away with focusing on Orcs, because it is basically orcs from draenor leading smaller-numbered races of Azeroth. Alliance needs to differentiate from that. It should be emphasized that it's a union of different races, none of the "high king" BS. It would also not hurt to develop the other races of the alliance a bit. Humans are bland and generic, but let's say we need at least one such option in fantasy. Humans are okay. What about other races? Gnomes are supposed to be engineers, tinkers and inventors - but that's not emphasized in any way! Any character can be engineer, even a troll. Dwarves are almost as bland as humans, and they don't have half as much development. Night Elves have something going for them, but Blizzard seems to insist on reducing them to pacifist hippies. Draenei and Worgen could be cool, but they had pretty much ZERO development past the starting zones.

So here's my take on what has to be done to make Alliance more interesting:
- Develop alliance story OUTSIDE of Alliance vs Horde conflict. Make them achieve something important and cool that doesn't involve horde in any way whatsoever.
- Quit making "alliance" settlements. Make dwarf settlements, night elf settlements, even worgen camps. Quests have to reflect diversity of alliance races. Horde actually has that already. Remember in Northrend? Borean tundra had distinctly orc-themed base, howling fjord had distinctly forsaken-themed villages. On alliance though, both places had generic fortresses.
- Stop trying to create "alliance style". It always ends up feeling "human" and generic.

That would be a good start.

No TL/DR, because I have no idea what I just wrote.

I think they were doing something interesting stuff with the Alliance originally! The exterior of the humans was fantasy kingdom with knights in shining armour as you stated, but the concept of that race (which I think you can still read in the original WoW manual) was that the interior was quite different. Corruption everywhere! the masons had not been paid which lead to the Defias. And then the solution is just to kill the Defias :P. The King was missing, leaving a kid on the throne with less-than-trustworthy advisors one of whom turned out to be a damn black dragon :P. Meanwhile despite all the posturing the armies of the Alliance were failing so badly in the areas around Elwynn that Duskwood and Redridge seemed to be on the point of declaring independence.
Ever since the adventure moved on however these aspects seem to have been forgotten. Varian is pretty much a fantasy superhero and the 'corruption' in Cataclysm was just a foil for the really heroic characters (and us) to be more heroic about. All the moral greyness that the original human faction had (shiny exterior, but actually not really better than the 'demons' they were fighting against) seems to have seeped away and any time it turns up we get to beat it back to where it came from.

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Also... there could be some really interesting stories about the way Worgen are either accepted or not accepted by human society as a whole; but beyond the Gilneas starting area everyone seems to think Worgen are just a-okay.