Savage roar, completely useless?

[Deleted]

So savage roar gives a 40% buff to all melee dmg. Seems fine right? Then why does my 40% dmg buff equal to every other classes 100% dmg? Its bloody retarded.We are constantly playing with a 40% handicap, unless we keep an eye out for savage roar. What other class has that? If they would make it 140% dmg (so 40 on top of 100% instead of 60%), id understand it, but this is just stupid.

Did they lack proper skills for a rotation, and go ´well fuck, lets just give em a 40% debuff at all times that can be removed while maintaining a good rotation´. Its like making DK´s aura´s on 20s timers with a need for refresh within the rotation. Or a mage that actually has to evocate every 30 seconds. Its ridiculous. And in PvE its manageable even. But holy shit pvp.

Unless u have the glyph, the first 10 seconds ur busy getting savage roar up. Not only that, but due to kiting, etc. As soon as SR wears off, ur fucked. All the combo points u can muster need to be converted into SR, or ull be doing shit damage. But while doing so, u never have enough to get a rip or ferocious bite out.

Thoughts?

[Sylar Hao]

I've been complaining about this so called 'ability' ever since it was introduced. A way too punishing joke version of Slice&Dice that adds no interesting gameplay at all. Inquisition for ret paladins got removed in WoD and it's exactly the same as Savage Roar but way less punishing if you let it drop.

Not that I want to have one less ability, but I do want something else. I've suggested many times in forums many different options for Savage Roar not related to flat damage increase.

My latest suggestion to Celestalon was:
- Remove Swipe (we really don't need 2 AoE moves, imo)
- Thrash adds cp and applies a bleed called Rend. Rend stacks up to 5 times.
- New finisher: Lynx Rush (or whatever you want to call it): Different version of Rogue's Killing Spree. The druid goes into a frenzy, leaping between nearby enemies and applying one stack of Rend. The druid will try to not attack the same target each leap, but if there's only one target then it will unleash all the attacks on it, applying all 5 stacks of Rend. The druid will attack (1 per combo point) times during Lynx Rush. Since the druid is leaping and not blinking like Killing Spree does, he can be CC'ed while Lynx Rush. Also, Lynx Rush doesn't need any target, the druid just goes on a frenzy attacking nearby enemies, so you can still use the ability to consume existing combo points to activate Predatory Swiftness. Not sure if that would be possible to implement though.

So we'd have a finisher that's useful for AoE, for cleave situations and for single target.

[Glurp]

The first part of your post gave reasons why Savage Roar could be considered "useless" since it's assumed you have a 100% uptime on it so there's not really any point in it existing. The last part of your post on the other hand gave reasons why Savage Roar isn't useless, in that you do less damage if you let is drop, so by having it a requirement to keep active you add an extra level of complexity to the class.

You could argue that abilities such as Slice and Dice, Inquisition or Savage Roar are pointless and may as well be made passive/removed (which some are) but the reason they exist is because they are a part of the skill cap required to play the class. The example you gave in your post is irrelevant because a situation like that has never occurred before and likely never will because your entire theoretical situation is based around not having the glyph, which if such a situation occurred you most definitely would have taken the glyph.

So we'd have a finisher that's useful for AoE, for cleave situations and for single target.

If you give a spec perfect abilities for every situation then you cause them to be too good at everything and therefore become stupidly overpowered in the same way that Destro Warlocks were in SoO.

[Sylar Hao]

I don't find it overpowered, to be honest. Feral is terrible in AoE and Cleave situations, what I propose would add something different, 5 attacks that add a small bleed to different targets will never be stronger or will never shine over many other classes abilities, but it would a much needed flavor to the spec, as we lack animations (we have like 3 o 4 animations tops in cat form), and defining skills as we are designed after rogues and warriors.

Of course, it doesn't have to be what I suggest, I'm pretty sure there are better suggestions out there, that's just my idea. But the skill cap of the spec shouldn't be defined by such a boring and uninteresting ability as Savage Roar. Its only flavour is just an annoying roar that sounds like it was performed by a cat and not by a lion/panther/tiger. And it's too punishing. Sometimes you can't avoid let it drop because you get cc'ed, a phase transition is happening, or you have to refresh Rip instead, which may seem as good reasons to call it a skill cap ability, but at such a big cost... If a rogue lets SnD drop or a Paladin lets Inq. drop they don't get a straight 40% damage loss, if anything a 15% or so damage loss.

Also... the new 'talent' (really, that shouldn't even be considered a talent) Savagery is just sad. To me it seems like they don't know how to focus the whole spec rotation, flavour and identity.

[ashblond]

I don't find it overpowered, to be honest. Feral is terrible in AoE and Cleave situations, what I propose would add something different, 5 attacks that add a small bleed to different targets will never be stronger or will never shine over many other classes abilities, but it would a much needed flavor to the spec, as we lack animations (we have like 3 o 4 animations tops in cat form), and defining skills as we are designed after rogues and warriors.

Of course, it doesn't have to be what I suggest, I'm pretty sure there are better suggestions out there, that's just my idea. But the skill cap of the spec shouldn't be defined by such a boring and uninteresting ability as Savage Roar. Its only flavour is just an annoying roar that sounds like it was performed by a cat and not by a lion/panther/tiger. And it's too punishing. Sometimes you can't avoid let it drop because you get cc'ed, a phase transition is happening, or you have to refresh Rip instead, which may seem as good reasons to call it a skill cap ability, but at such a big cost... If a rogue lets SnD drop or a Paladin lets Inq. drop they don't get a straight 40% damage loss, if anything a 15% or so damage loss.

Also... the new 'talent' (really, that shouldn't even be considered a talent) Savagery is just sad. To me it seems like they don't know how to focus the whole spec rotation, flavour and identity.

Totally agree. I think a AoE finisher for feral druids is a brilliant idea, instead of a boring flat damage buff that needs to keep up.

[Skadovsk]

Then just go take the passive SR 100 talent.
I'll be over here with my sweet blood talons awww yeah


And feral aoe and cleave is not bad, you must be terrible, sure if you compare it with a lock then every class is bad, but you can still compete with the rest.

[Nurvus]

So savage roar gives a 40% buff to all melee dmg. Seems fine right? Then why does my 40% dmg buff equal to every other classes 100% dmg? Its bloody retarded.We are constantly playing with a 40% handicap, unless we keep an eye out for savage roar. What other class has that? If they would make it 140% dmg (so 40 on top of 100% instead of 60%), id understand it, but this is just stupid.

Did they lack proper skills for a rotation, and go ´well fuck, lets just give em a 40% debuff at all times that can be removed while maintaining a good rotation´. Its like making DK´s aura´s on 20s timers with a need for refresh within the rotation. Or a mage that actually has to evocate every 30 seconds. Its ridiculous. And in PvE its manageable even. But holy shit pvp.

Unless u have the glyph, the first 10 seconds ur busy getting savage roar up. Not only that, but due to kiting, etc. As soon as SR wears off, ur fucked. All the combo points u can muster need to be converted into SR, or ull be doing shit damage. But while doing so, u never have enough to get a rip or ferocious bite out.

Thoughts?

So you want to know what other classes or specs have similar mechanics?
- All DoT specs need to "keep an eye out for their DoTs"
- Mages need to "keep an eye out for their Bomb spells"
- Rogues need to "keep an eye out for their Slice and Dice"
- Windwalker need to "keep an eye out for their Tigereye Brew"
- Death Knights need to "keep an eye out for their Diseases"
- Fury Warriors need to "keep an eye out for their Enrage" to determine when to use Bloodthirst, Colossus Smash and Berserker's Rage.

It's called Ramp Up mechanic.

Retribution lost their Inquisition but still have a DoT called Censure that stacks up to 5. Until the DoT reaches 5 stacks Ret are not doing their full damage.

Its primary function is preventing you from just unleashing your full damage out of nowhere.

If you want dumbed down gameplay I sincerely hope Blizzard finds a way to ignore your every word.

[Sylar Hao]

Then just go take the passive SR 100 talent.
I'll be over here with my sweet blood talons awww yeah
And feral aoe and cleave is not bad, you must be terrible, sure if you compare it with a lock then every class is bad, but you can still compete with the rest.

We don't want to pick the passive SR talent. We just want something else to use that's not so lame as SR is. And no, I'm not terrible, Feral's aoe and cleave damage is lucklaster, but in other to have reason in this argument you need to call me terrible.

[Kraineth]

We don't want to pick the passive SR talent. We just want something else to use that's not so lame as SR is. And no, I'm not terrible, Feral's aoe and cleave damage is lucklaster, but in other to have reason in this argument you need to call me terrible.

Feral AoE is one of the best dude, cleave is a bit weak, which is fixed with WoD having combo points not wasted when changing targets.

If you think SR is lame then don't play the spec, it is integral to the feral play style.

[Sylar Hao]

So you want to know what other classes or specs have similar mechanics?
- All DoT specs need to "keep an eye out for their DoTs"
- Mages need to "keep an eye out for their Bomb spells"
- Rogues need to "keep an eye out for their Slice and Dice"
- Windwalker need to "keep an eye out for their Tigereye Brew"
- Death Knights need to "keep an eye out for their Diseases"
- Fury Warriors need to "keep an eye out for their Enrage" to determine when to use Bloodthirst, Colossus Smash and Berserker's Rage.

It's called Ramp Up mechanic.

Retribution lost their Inquisition but still have a DoT called Censure that stacks up to 5. Until the DoT reaches 5 stacks Ret are not doing their full damage.

Its primary function is preventing you from just unleashing your full damage out of nowhere.

If you want dumbed down gameplay I sincerely hope Blizzard finds a way to ignore your every word.

Those mechanics aren't similar in the slightest:
- DoTs deal damage, they are part of the damaging toolkit.
- Mages bombs are pretty much DoTs. And they won't be a must in WoD.
- Only 2 out of the 3 specs actually track SnD. Rogues have way better energy reg. than us, they suffer less than us to keep SnD up. Plus, whenever they let it drop, it's not a straight 40% dps loss.
- WW's Tigereye Brew is like our Tiger's Fury, but they can use it 2 to 3 times in a row if they are lucky with their mastery procs. But they aren't designed around having a TeB uptime of 100%.
- DK's diseases are pretty much autoapplied by their frost and unholy attacks. Frost only needs to refresh Blood plague, Unholy can roll the same diseases an entire fight thanks to Festering Strike or whatever is called (haven't played a DK for a while), and a Blood DK can Outbreak before they expire or pick Rolling Blood talent. They have little to no management of Diseases.
- Fury warriors have Enrage procs, but they also have cds to activate it. And again, they aren't designed around a 100% Enrage uptime.
- Retribution's Censure last like... 4 or 5 secs to get max stacks. And now that they don't have Inquisition they'll just Verdict right away. On the other hand, not only we have to build cp to get SR but also build 5 more to apply Rip. It's about double the time (triple even if RNG crit Lord refuses to give you extra cp) to deal full damage as a feral.

You can't really compare any of those mechanics to Savage Roar. Seriously.

I'm not asking to dumb the spec down. I don't want to lose the amount of skills I have either. What I do want is get current Savage Roar removed and get something else in its place, even if it has the same ramp up time, in fact, the suggestion I made would force the druid to keep track of 2 finishers, one for Rip and one for 5 stacks of Rend. Something that makes the spec fun, something that adds some identity to the spec. Not an skill that's just a boring flat +40% damage.

[Deleted]

So you want to know what other classes or specs have similar mechanics?
- All DoT specs need to "keep an eye out for their DoTs"
- Mages need to "keep an eye out for their Bomb spells"
- Rogues need to "keep an eye out for their Slice and Dice"
- Windwalker need to "keep an eye out for their Tigereye Brew"
- Death Knights need to "keep an eye out for their Diseases"
- Fury Warriors need to "keep an eye out for their Enrage" to determine when to use Bloodthirst, Colossus Smash and Berserker's Rage.

It's called Ramp Up mechanic.

Retribution lost their Inquisition but still have a DoT called Censure that stacks up to 5. Until the DoT reaches 5 stacks Ret are not doing their full damage.

Its primary function is preventing you from just unleashing your full damage out of nowhere.

If you want dumbed down gameplay I sincerely hope Blizzard finds a way to ignore your every word.

Ur talking about dots and on proc uses.

Im talkin bout playing with a 40% damage nerf if i dont fit savage roar into my rotation. Because thats what savage roar is, a damage buff.
But instead of it meaning i have 140% damage during the buff, its blatantly that im playing at 60% of my damage when not using it. Thats retarded.

[Skagasm]

If you did 140% damage compared to other classes with Savage Roar up then it would be retarded without significant re-balancing. If you don't understand that then you have no concept of how class balance works.

Every class plays with a giant damage nerf if they refuse to use their abilities. The fact that none of them are literally the exact same mechanic as Savage Roar is irrelevant.

If you don't like Savage Roar there's a talent for that in WoD. If you don't like that talent then maybe you don't like Feral DPS.

[Sylar Hao]

If you did 140% damage compared to other classes with Savage Roar up then it would be retarded without significant re-balancing. If you don't understand that then you have no concept of how class balance works.

Every class plays with a giant damage nerf if they refuse to use their abilities. The fact that none of them are literally the exact same mechanic as Savage Roar is irrelevant.

If you don't like Savage Roar there's a talent for that in WoD. If you don't like that talent then maybe you don't like Feral DPS.

Nobody is stating we want 100% damage all the time plus 40% from Savage Roar. We just want Savage Roar to be modified or replaced with something different. If you don't understand that then you have no skill of how to read.

And no, not every class plays with that giant damage nerf. Of course if you don't use your damaging kit you won't be doing the damage you're supposed to. But Savage Roar is not even a damaging tool, is just a plain and boring buff. A lock is supposed to have a 100% uptime from Immolate, and it's cool because it actually has a graphic, deals damage and generates Burning Embers, a feral is supposed to have a 100% uptime from Savage Roar which... just roars... like a kitten... that's being hit by a car.

And you're mistaken, I love feral dps, I just hate Savage Roar. It's not that hard to understand.

[Aleksej89]

I hate savage roar.

Even with all the glyphs blizz put in and an optional WOD talent making Savage roar passive, it is still an awful awful spell.

You spend energy to gather combo points, and then you spend them on casting a buff that just enhances your future attacks... worst design ever.

Paladins had a similar buff called Inquisition that blizzard completely removed in WoD.
I am hoping that Savage Roar gets removed as well.

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=Nurvus;27639919]So you want to know what other classes or specs have similar mechanics?[QUOTE]

- All DoT specs need to "keep an eye out for their DoTs"

feral is dot class so giving that as comparison i need to keep dots and savage roar

- Mages need to "keep an eye out for their Bomb spells"

bomb is a dot we go back to the 1st point

- Rogues need to "keep an eye out for their Slice and Dice"

they dont in WOD its passive and in MOP assassination spec refresh it with envenom use ( in the feral case you can do the same or go with passive roar and lose dps or go with bloodtalons old DOC and be back in the same)

- Windwalker need to "keep an eye out for their Tigereye Brew"

i dont have a clue about monks

- Death Knights need to "keep an eye out for their Diseases"

Diseases are dots and from what i know they are passive

- Fury Warriors need to "keep an eye out for their Enrage" to determine when to use Bloodthirst, Colossus Smash and Berserker's Rage.

i need to keep an eye on dots/roar how many CP i have how mach energy i have so i will be able to use DOC if you dont know what DOC is or how is used by the feral go watch a video cba to explain it here

in reality this is what you need to track as a warrior

Retribution lost their Inquisition but still have a DoT called Censure that stacks up to 5. Until the DoT reaches 5 stacks Ret are not doing their full damage.

Its primary function is preventing you from just unleashing your full damage out of nowhere.

i believe most of the ret ability's refresh or apply that dot

If you want dumbed down gameplay I sincerely hope Blizzard finds a way to ignore your every word.

what i see in WOD at least pve wise every single class is getting more simple with exception the feral witch it will be basically the same at least in competitive environment

PS: dont compare PVE feral with other melee classes cause its not even funny

- - - Updated - - -

Then just go take the passive SR 100 talent.
I'll be over here with my sweet blood talons awww yeah


And feral aoe and cleave is not bad, you must be terrible, sure if you compare it with a lock then every class is bad, but you can still compete with the rest.

feral doesn't even have cleave Thrash is AOE Swipe is also AOE
putting dots (Rake) on multiple targets its not cleave its multidot using Thrash and Swipe its not cleave its AOE

calling others bad or terrible makes you look so awesome at least in your eyes

[Gemini Soul]

They should bake its effects into cat form or remove and adjust attacks accordingly. Then give us an AoE CP finisher, talented to replace the current SR talent or non-talented and give us a new talent to replace it.


ALL the other "CP" users have one:

Pally: Divine Storm
Monk: Fist of Furry and talented attack Chi Explosion/Hurricane Strike
Rogue:Crimson Tempest and talented attack Death From Above.

Thrash doesn't count because its an AoE attack that gives a CP, and all the other "CP" classes have such an attack.

[Maconi]

[sarcasm]+2 Attack to everything is amazing, are you crazy?[/sarcasm]

For those who don't get the joke:

[Mormolyce]

So savage roar gives a 40% buff to all melee dmg. Seems fine right? Then why does my 40% dmg buff equal to every other classes 100% dmg? Its bloody retarded.We are constantly playing with a 40% handicap, unless we keep an eye out for savage roar. What other class has that?

Um, Slice and Dice on a Rogue?

It's a buff you have to maintain and the game is tuned on the expectation that you can keep 100% uptime, like everything else...

I don't know why people have such a problem with this type of mechanic, you'd prefer to just spam Fero Bite all day?

- - - Updated - - -

You spend energy to gather combo points, and then you spend them on casting a buff that just enhances your future attacks... worst design ever.

I don't see what's bad about this design. Maintaining a buff has been part of WoW's combat system since it was invented.

It's no different to maintaining a dot either... you spend CPs to keep something up and it increases your damage...

- - - Updated - - -

they dont in WOD its passive and in MOP assassination spec refresh it with envenom use ( in the feral case you can do the same or go with passive roar and lose dps or go with bloodtalons old DOC and be back in the same)

That's because in Assass you maintain Rupture instead...

[Thelxi]

What other class has that?

Rogues' slice and dice, paladin inquisition, MM hunter improved steady shots, to an extend eclipses for balance druids.. all those are handicaps in the disguise of buffs. You just keep them up to be normal. Savage roar might be one of the most punishing handicaps, but it is definitely not the only one.

[Skadovsk]

We don't want to pick the passive SR talent. We just want something else to use that's not so lame as SR is. And no, I'm not terrible, Feral's aoe and cleave damage is lucklaster, but in other to have reason in this argument you need to call me terrible.

No its not, feral is at least midpack for aoe and cleave, and fuck you sound like you just want to play rogue with a cat model for fucking real.

Edit: infracted -- please be courteous to other users.