Necrotic Strike Removal

[Challenge]

So, I just read Celestion's twitter responses to NS removal. He doesn't get it at all. He sees NS the same way a lot of people who don't PvP see NS, just a different form of damage.

More like you don't get it. It's hard seeing things from another dimension I'm well aware, but just try it.

[Tyrean]

More like you don't get it. It's hard seeing things from another dimension I'm well aware, but just try it.

What exactly don't I get? Celestion's comments point out that he currently thinks that if you just buff SS to do the same "damage" that NS does it will be better for everyone because NS just does fake damage. There are two routes to buff SS to NS levels.

1.) You buff SS to do the same amount of "damage" that NS does without PvP modifiers. (like enemy defense) This would be a massive nerf to DKs in PvP and take away the only thing that DKs have going for them, which is pressure. Pressure, not damage, pressure.
2.) You buff SS to do the same amount of "damage" that NS does under enemy defensive effects. This would be a massive buff to DK damage that would make current PvE warlocks look like babies and all the people who lived through S5 cry alone at night.

Both scenarios are terrible, and they are born from the misconception that NS is just delayed/fake/different damage.

[Challenge]

SS will not do the same damage than NS can absorb. They wont buff it to be even close to that. ( with trinket procs, a NS can absorb over 100k consistently. ) What they will do is buff unholy enough to where you can put relatively the same amount of pressure, even if its not only from SS.

Pressure is damage. Weather its in the form of a healing absorb or just immediate damage, it gets the healers attention to say (hey I should throw some big heals on this guy).

Reason why NS is miles better than SS, it absorbs far more than feasible damage a SS can deal. If it was the other way around, no one would use NS. Its pretty unique but still redundant. They could balance gameplay around both, but they are pruning abilities, so NS makes sense to go.

In addition, not being tied to use this abilitiy anymore opens up better avenues. You dont have to take blood tap anymore. Using chains of ice isn't as punishing when it doesnt proc reaping. Its not as punishing when you have to use death runes on another move, better scaling by having your "damage" moved into other moves, that actually benefits from secondaries, etc

As I've said before, doesn't matter if its 500 immediate damage or a 500 absorb. The former is actually more beneficial in all scenarios conceivable currently.
Current meta its more like deal 30k max damage with scourge strike, or do a minimum 80k healing absorb.

Balancing the "damage" not being around the absorb is a good thing, and its a no brainer why they would remove NS. I also wish you would stop bringing up s5 like it means anything. Dks especially unholy was glad/R1 viable throughout all of wotlk.

[Tyrean]

SS will not do the same damage than NS can absorb. They wont buff it to be even close to that. ( with trinket procs, a NS can absorb over 100k consistently. ) What they will do is buff unholy enough to where you can put relatively the same amount of pressure, even if its not only from SS.

I am confused then I guess on what you expect from them. They have said that they are going to buff SS to compensate for loss of NS. They have said that everything else will stay relatively the same. Their tweets expose the thinking of PvE first, PvP maybe if we think about it. You identify that NS is way more pressure than SS could be, so you surely must also recognize that if they buff that spec to be able to put out relatively the same amount of pressure that it will make DK the number one DPS spec by a long shot in raids?

Pressure is damage. Weather its in the form of a healing absorb or just immediate damage, it gets the healers attention to say (hey I should throw some big heals on this guy).

But the point is that the DK pressure currently comes not from damage, but rather from the healing absorb. If they make us do the same amount of pressure it will actually put our damage through the roof, which will get scaled back for dragonslaying.

Reason why NS is miles better than SS, it absorbs far more than feasible damage a SS can deal. If it was the other way around, no one would use NS. Its pretty unique but still redundant. They could balance gameplay around both, but they are pruning abilities, so NS makes sense to go.

The point here is that currently PvE is scaled mostly around SS and PvP scaled mostly around NS. It is actually an elegant design for all the people that want the two types of gameplay split. PvE doesn't care about NS at all, and PvP doesn't really care about SS very much. Take away that disconnect and one or the other will falter and it will always be PvP. (this is based on years of experience)

As I've said before, doesn't matter if its 500 immediate damage or a 500 absorb. The former is actually more beneficial in all scenarios conceivable currently.
Current meta its more like deal 30k max damage with scourge strike, or do a minimum 80k healing absorb.

I know you understand that it has never been 500 damage versus 500 absorb. You say as much later in this train of thought. So why compare them in that fashion?

I also wish you would stop bringing up s5 like it means anything. Dks especially unholy was glad/R1 viable throughout all of wotlk.

Everyone brings this up because it is used as the ultimate example of when a spec is too strong in PvP. I have known DKs that couldn't hit their way out of a wet paper bag that were glads in S5. DKs got a huge nerf because of it, and we have forever been in that shadow. Also, most of wrath was dominated by PvE gear, and it just happens that DKs got one of the strongest PvE items to ever effect PvP.


EDIT:
EDIT the EDIT: those numbers are way off, trying to find something better. But by no means were DKs in a good spot all of wrath.

[Challenge]

I am confused then I guess on what you expect from them. They have said that they are going to buff SS to compensate for loss of NS. They have said that everything else will stay relatively the same. Their tweets expose the thinking of PvE first, PvP maybe if we think about it. You identify that NS is way more pressure than SS could be, so you surely must also recognize that if they buff that spec to be able to put out relatively the same amount of pressure that it will make DK the number one DPS spec by a long shot in raids?

Not really, because they could actually make scourge strike hit like a monster (more than NS can absorb consistently) and just nerf other spells in relative damage while keeping the same net damage in PvE. Thats not the case in PvP.

The point here is that currently PvE is scaled mostly around SS and PvP scaled mostly around NS. It is actually an elegant design for all the people that want the two types of gameplay split. PvE doesn't care about NS at all, and PvP doesn't really care about SS very much. Take away that disconnect and one or the other will falter and it will always be PvP. (this is based on years of experience)

The first bold is somewhat wrong, our main damage on every fight really should be blood plague. The max potential of the class in PvE is really revolved around DoT snapshotting, not how many SS's you can get out. The second bold is another reason why they are axing one. There is no need to have 2 different strikes for 2 different parts of gameplay that ultimately, perform the same job. Next point also refers to this

I know you understand that it has never been 500 damage versus 500 absorb. You say as much later in this train of thought. So why compare them in that fashion?

Because I showed you as an example how much how a number knob can do. If they was equal, SS would win 90% of the time. Because SS also have the great benefit of scaling properly. If they can tune SS to make up for NS in PvP there is no need for NS. The same logic does not work for PvE, because NS is useless there. Outright damage on the other hand is never useless in any scenario.

those numbers are way off, trying to find something better. But by no means were DKs in a good spot all of wrath

Dks were AMAZING s5,s6, Pretty decent s7, below average s8, average s9, average s10, pretty great s11 and s12, s13, s14 , s15 below average.

[Faenlyn]

What exactly don't I get? Celestion's comments point out that he currently thinks that if you just buff SS to do the same "damage" that NS does it will be better for everyone because NS just does fake damage. There are two routes to buff SS to NS levels.
...

Both scenarios are terrible, and they are born from the misconception that NS is just delayed/fake/different damage.

You are basically saying "no its impossible they can't balance SS for both PVP and PVE. It's can't be done!"
before you even see the numbers or how they go about doing it...
Sorry. Celestalon and Holinka seem pretty confident they can do it. Their understanding of damage tuning and mechanics is far more than yours so I trust their "we will tune the damage to compensate" far more than I trust your "its impossible it cant be done" sensationalism

[Schizoide]

Pretty easy to do, just special-case it in PvP to deal an extra X% damage against player targets. Or a much more elegant solution; add the heal absorb shield to Plague Strike like I posted a couple pages back.

[hasslehoof]

I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that the Shadow portion of SS can crit again, will be hilarious if it hits simmilarly to what it did for the first few days of 3.3 (seriously, you could quite literally crit people for 90% of their health if you got a double dip crit), if that's the case I'm ok with NS being gone, if not then there's no reason to remove it, it doesn't get reduced through defensive cooldowns so it's extremely good for pressuring even when people pop stuff like Shield Wall.

[Schizoide]

I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that the Shadow portion of SS can crit again, will be hilarious if it hits simmilarly to what it did for the first few days of 3.3

Nobody's forgetting it, because it won't work that way. ScS in 6.x is a 65% weapon damage strike dealing physical damage and a separate 35% weapon damage strike dealing shadow damage. Each hit can crit independently, and the shadow portion is not dependent on the physical portion at all. It is not 3.3 casino strike.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...72259032698884

[Shiira]

I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that the Shadow portion of SS can crit again, will be hilarious if it hits simmilarly to what it did for the first few days of 3.3

Back then we were dealing with a situation where a double crit would do several times more damage than a double crit, this is a completely different story, and the damage output of wod scourge strike is going to be much smoother.

[Deleted]

Necrotic Strike was what really made UH fun for me can't wrap my head around why they would remove such a UH like spell, now were basicly just shadow paladins..

[Deleted]

Necrotic Strike was what really made UH fun for me can't wrap my head around why they would remove such a UH like spell, now were basicly just shadow paladins..

Well... this kinda is what we are, actually

[Darkedge]

I wouldn't expect it back, Celestalon is adamant that NS would do the same effective damage as scourge strike even through cooldowns like Shield Wall and Dispersion and doesn't agree that deciding when to use it is an interesting decision as opposed to a 1 button for every circumstance style of play:

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...30940852080641

At the end of the day, if the guy were to believe the sky to be green then all we can say is "fair enough" as he is in the position to make changes and we are not. Still eager to see what changes we get down the road, no evidence of anything so far, but we're waiting.

Carry on fellows.

[Shiira]

If the devs are so adamant that what they want is more important than what we want I guess they don't want my money.

[valliant13]

If the devs are so adamant that what they want is more important than what we want I guess they don't want my money.

Yea, that's pretty much how im feeling. I know the Necro Strike removal is going two ways with the community(some happy its going, others not), but if they dont want to listen to things we as players of this class want, then what is the point. They clearly don't have a direct vision of where this class should be or where they want it to go. Only so long people will continue to stand dealing with it before saying F it.

[Faenlyn]

Yea, that's pretty much how im feeling. I know the Necro Strike removal is going two ways with the community(some happy its going, others not), but if they dont want to listen to things we as players of this class want, then what is the point. They clearly don't have a direct vision of where this class should be or where they want it to go. Only so long people will continue to stand dealing with it before saying F it.

You dont recognize the contradiction in your own words? First you say the community is split 2 ways. Some happy others not. Then you say you're upset that Blizz is not listening to what "we as players of this class want". There is no "we". Not everyone agrees with you. Plenty of people are happy to see NS go and SS buffed. Some like you aren't. Just because you are entitled to your opinion does not mean that you are part of a "we" or even a majority that Blizz is not listening to. The devs are already said they will make changes that they think are best for the game according to their vision of what the game is. They won't cater to a group of players that has delusions that it represents all players. There is no "we". Only "you"

[valliant13]

You dont recognize the contradiction in your own words? First you say the community is split 2 ways. Some happy others not. Then you say you're upset that Blizz is not listening to what "we as players of this class want". There is no "we". Not everyone agrees with you. Plenty of people are happy to see NS go and SS buffed. Some like you aren't. Just because you are entitled to your opinion does not mean that you are part of a "we" or even a majority that Blizz is not listening to. The devs are already said they will make changes that they think are best for the game according to their vision of what the game is. They won't cater to a group of players that has delusions that it represents all players. There is no "we". Only "you"

Well I wasn't putting in reference to necrotic strike per say. More so mechanical changes that need to happen that the majority of the community from what ive seen agrees on...like killing machine. I know this is the NS thread, and I should have been more clear on what exactly I was directing it towards.

[Deleted]

If the devs are so adamant that what they want is more important than what we want I guess they don't want my money.

1. You're probably not going to stop playing because of this change
2. You're not their only source of income. If their changes cause you to stop playing, but 5 other people to start playing (again), then yes, they really don't want your money.

[Shiira]

Of course I'm not going to quit over just this specific issue, but if I end up seeing my feedback amount to nothing for a third beta in a row I'm not sticking around.

[Kezotar]

Well... this kinda is what we are, actually

If only Blizzard did actually use Warcraft 3.. However, here we are, Tauren Paladins.. Gnome Death Knights...

- - - Updated - - -

1. You're probably not going to stop playing because of this change
2. You're not their only source of income. If their changes cause you to stop playing, but 5 other people to start playing (again), then yes, they really don't want your money.

Wait what? 5 Players will start playing because I quit? I mean, they quarters clearly show a decrease.. I doubt that's the case.. It's more like, for every player that starts wow, two players leave. 3 Million lost, is it? Since Cataclysm? From 11 - 8? That's clearly alot of people that dislike current changes.