Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[Hyve]

I mean I'm sure they said "Get Out" and "This is crap"

Aye.

I mean one of the biggest issues here is the response from the Developers. Any criticism seems to be taken to heart, which is one of the most stupid things you can do as a developer, especially a small time indie team. You need to separate yourself from the product, be able to take the negative feedback as a response to the game, not your personal views and ideas.

Negative or Positive feedback is all essential, because if someone is passionate enough about your game to write a well represented response, they're clearly the person who is likely to buy the game. Maybe their negative feedback is the reason they (and potentially thousands, or millions of others players) won't buy the game and addressing said issues might bring in a whole new source of community.

The fact that the developers hide here, making snide comments and then retreating to their forums to cry and moan about us is a damn shame, because it highlights the biggest issue with new developers; Attitude.

Between all of the issues I (and others) have raised, they clearly need to address this publicly. Make all of their accounts, income and past open and clear, let us see exactly what is going on behind the curtain and answer some of the brutal questions. It'll cost them time to do so, but if they don't address a lot of these issues they risk being branded scammers permanently.

Hell, I'd love a chance to sit down with these guys in Skype, and talk over some of the points, let them know why I think it's a scam, what I think is the issue here, but they'd never even consider taking the community seriously (Unless they're fanatics of their game), let alone someone who doubts they're genuine.

[Sunaka]

but if they don't address a lot of these issues they risk being branded scammers permanently.

I believe they're past that point. If anything, they might wanna do it to avoid being investigated. An investigation would slow them down far more.

[Tanamoril]

Hey guys, I'm going to be away for a week going camping... Just wanted to explain why I'm leaving the thread for a while.

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I believe Cherubims is no more misinformed than you; he had your conviction, participated in their forums, and in communication with devs as shown here:

Yeah, I believe Cherubims or whoever he was was a fan who paid attention to the developers' quotes in the forums. I pointed out where he was misinformed about the game, which makes it less likely he was a developer. The HeroEngine was still in development in 2007, and they had not yet started the HeroCloud service that allowed small developers to license it out.

That's right, you weren't there..... I don't care what they cited, I pointed out your double talk, not theirs. Don't keep retracting and saying you weren't there when you can't defend. If you weren't there, don't bring it up!

All right, I apologize.

The $75k from their store.

Ah, that's my confusion. You mean $57k. But that wasn't even on the horizon in 2007...

[Crenz]

This thread always delivers.

I think Tanamoril may, for some reason unknown to me, actually be a fan of the game idea. However, I don't know why he feels the need to defend or change our opinions. As a few people mentioned, their forums may have some real people (possibly Tanamoril), but the majority of the members seem to be extremely alike, as well as over-the-top in their posts. Maybe the fanbase is 20-30 people, with a few hundred fake accounts. Who knows.

Bottom line, I don't think it matters. This game idea is a scam, and the purpose of this thread is to show that, and I think it has succeeded. The "developers" plan to go to Kickstarter and raise funds to "develop" the game idea, and that is the issue people have. If this happens, and for some reason they hit their goal, give it a few months and they will post some reason why they had to stop development, and the money will be gone. Rinse, repeat a few years later. They are not raising funds to develop an idea, they are raising funds to buy pizza and pay rent. Needing $40k to develop a demo is just ridiculous. As well, didn't Teddy just volunteer his time/etc to developing the game idea?

Tanamoril, if you are a real fan, why not research some other indie games that actually deserve a devoted fan like yourself, and join their community? I am sure there are other games that would interest you, and likely not leave you in disappointment like this game idea will.

EDIT: Also, I forget what post, but you mentioned the 40 pages of lore made in the last month by two "developers". Isn't that basically a little more than a half page a day per person? That is not that impressive at all, especially for people supposedly spending hundreds of hours on this game idea.

[Kyanion]

I find it odd they need 50k+ for a demo and have supposedly earned 57k to make this demo. So many posts on their forums think when this demo is ready it is rush to Kickstarter time and show off what they have. People are waiting to bury these scammers and report the kickstarter with proof of what they are doing. That kickstarter is going to crash and burn so hard it isn't even funny.

And if by some miracle they actually have a demo that is even halfway decent they STILL won't get a fully funded Kickstarter because of all the red flags they have. They are tainted and nothing they can do will save it.

[Fallen Angel]

Their kickstarter barely made 75K 6 days before it was scheduled to end anyway. It's not going to go anywhere.

[Kyanion]

Yeah and I still think the Kickstarter number was just as juiced as the one on their website is. Have someone pledge a high amount just to get it to appear like something is really happening and they are making strides towards that goal.

[dextersmith]

I find it odd they need 50k+ for a demo and have supposedly earned 57k to make this demo. So many posts on their forums think when this demo is ready it is rush to Kickstarter time and show off what they have. People are waiting to bury these scammers and report the kickstarter with proof of what they are doing. That kickstarter is going to crash and burn so hard it isn't even funny.

And if by some miracle they actually have a demo that is even halfway decent they STILL won't get a fully funded Kickstarter because of all the red flags they have. They are tainted and nothing they can do will save it.

If they need $40k for the demo, what was the $75k used for from their store?

[Fallen Angel]

Yeah and I still think the Kickstarter number was just as juiced as the one on their website is. Have someone pledge a high amount just to get it to appear like something is really happening and they are making strides towards that goal.

Considering KS isn't run by them, I doubt that was faked like I think their store page was.. Still, it has nowhere to go but down. They can't make a MMO on their store/donations (which likely aren't real) being as pitiful as they are. KS is going to fare them no better.

[Kyanion]

I mean in the case of Kickstarter where you know if you hit this 700k goal the person who you have front 40k or whatever would be paid back. Essentially it would be a risk free Kickstarter investment with the goal to scam 660k using very little seed money as opposed to trying to get all of it from other sources. Not saying that happened but it sure could be just as shady as that.

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If they need $40k for the demo, what was the $75k used for from their store?

I have no idea really, some of that stuff is beyond strange

[Deleted]

If they need $40k for the demo, what was the $75k used for from their store?

If i had to guess maybe something like this


1,5k to buy unity pro
500 dollars for the website
50 dollars to import the spider
73k to the devs personal bank accounts

[dextersmith]

If i had to guess maybe something like this


1,5k to buy unity pro
500 dollars for the website
50 dollars to import the spider
73k to the devs personal bank accounts

I woulda guessed the same.

[Kyanion]

Oh come on guys! That demo is totalllllly on the way! It will totally take 40-50k to make a demo! None of that money is being used for personal reasons....lol

[Hyve]

One of the developers recently followed me on Twitter. Maybe they do read this thread?

[Kyanion]

Or they want to stalk you! How dare you say ANYTHING negative about them!

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Oh damn they are "Setting the Record Straight" haha another wonderful thing to look at. Man with all those 'facts' I don't know how we can ever come back from that.

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And based on this timeline this 'demo' has been done since July but has been getting tested internally lolz. Man soon it is back to Kickstarter to fail again! They are right on track!

[unholytestament]

Here's a fact for them.

Over a month ago they wrote a blog that they specifically said was originally going to be all about the work they have been doing and that it would silence all naysayers. Instead they posted a bitchy and whiny blog, and the blog about all the work they did never came to pass.

I would love to talk about everything that I did over those past 4 weeks, regarding the networking, the animation trees, the collision detection, reports of attacks when a player is hit and when they defend, stamina updates, health updates based off damage on hit, the item swapping, the animation/position/rotation updates from client->server->all clients, fixes due to lag/desyncing/network fails, and a plethora of other things, BUT I won’t do that this week (perhaps the next blog). Instead I want to talk about something that has actually been sorta depressing to me which has actually finally blown over a bit, and is not as prevalent anymore, but occurred a few weeks ago.

Oh, we got a blog about databases, but that hardly covers half the things they listed much less the "plethora of other things".

[RagnarokBazil]

Damn that's shady. I wish people wouldn't trust those folks so easily. I feel bad for them, and it only helps scammers.

Ill leave you with this and close this thread with the reply post. and end this fake roumor.

(from toa web page)

("There has been a pretty intense smear campaign started against us. While it's been entertaining to watch all the lies and false statements (some bordering on slander), it has gone too far and it's time we set some things straight.

First is the ridiculous accusation that the three owners of Forged Chaos are making thousands of alternate accounts on our forums. Why would we do this and where would we get the time? We hold down full time jobs while working on ToA. We also have families that we enjoy spending time with. There are currently 111,000+ posts on our forums as of this writing and we've been on the web as Forged Chaos for nearly two years. That would mean each of us writing ~50 posts per day every day. Yeah, that'll happen...

Second, the lie that we've failed two kickstarters. Please prove this to us because it would sure be a real eye opener for us! Yes, we cancelled one Kickstarter after we admittedly botched its launch and completely flopped at our attempt to make a solid video, both issues we are currently resolving.

Let me give them the benefit of the doubt and assume by "failed two Kickstarters" they mean a failed Kickstarter and failed attempt at achieving funding during our Shadowpool days. This is false. As has been explained multiple times now, we were given multiple offers to completely fund ToA during Shadowpool, but they came with requested compromises that we weren't willing to accept.

Third, the false statement that we received money from fans during our Shadowpool days. We owners put in tens of thousands of dollars of our own money over the years and never once asked for or used money that wasn't ours. After the change to Forged Chaos and a cancelled Kickstarter, we were ready to call it quits, but the fans convinced us to carry on. The only way that was going to happen was with an injection of cash that they stated (and have since proved) they were happy to provide.

Fourth, that we are outsourcing everything. We are not. Yes, we needed help as proven by the results of our first Kickstarter and went out and got the help needed. Is recognizing our shortcomings and addressing them for the sake of delivering on our promise something we should be faulted for?

Fifth, the idea that we are taking the money and skipping town. Not one penny of the money donated has been given to an owner. We are paying for talent to help with our aforementioned shortcomings along with the various expenses such as software licensing, server expenses, etc.

Sixth, the posted timelines of our history has been ... entertaining to say the least. Here's the high level view of our official history which can be found with enough digging around:

2002 - We launched our first website as Shadowpool Studios.

2008 - We shut down Shadowpool Studios and indefinitely suspended ToA.

September 2012 - We formed a new company, Forged Chaos LLC, and launched our new website announcing our return and the slimmed down version of ToA.

October 23, 2013 - We launched our Kickstarter campaign.

November 10, 2013 - We canceled our Kickstarter campaign and grouped up to see what we did wrong. This led to an all-out begging of our fans for us not to throw in the towel.

January 2, 2014 - We launched our store to raise needed funds and explained our intentions.

July 18, 2014 - We successfully completed our first test of our technical demo, focusing primarily on network load.

August 30, 2014 - We successfully completed our second test of our technical demo, focusing primarily on harvesting, graphic fidelity, and network load.

~~~

I would really like to know the motivations of the person who started all this and invite them to have a civil one-on-one chat with me, but alas the internet allows anyone with a keyboard and mouse to make jabs from the veil of anonymity and claim anything as their truth.

To the rest of the awesome MMO community -- feel free to contact us directly with any questions or concerns you may have via our forums, our social media outlets or email. Unlike how we are being portrayed, we don't bite, lie, or sacrifice young animals to the dark forces.")

[Kyanion]

What exactly does this clear up? And "visit the game and look at the project it is a game that will change everything we see about todays 'mmos'". Uh what? First of all there is no 'game' to change anything. And I don't care if they ever do finally release a working game it won't change a damn thing. Lol. Some small time mmo that prolly won't ever release is not going to redefine the genre and overtake all the MMOs that are above it.

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Aww I should have quoted that Ragnarok person, they changed their post. So my quotes are useless because they changed it. ah well.

[Post]

Hmmm, old totally not dev goes "camping". New blog post trying to refute the exact things he was talking about here pops up on site. Next day we get another totally not dev account copy pasting us the blog post. Seems legit to me!

[Kyanion]

Myobi they would love to show you something! But...they need more money to make this demo! And then that demo will BLOW YOUR MIND and go to kickstarter and TOTALLY get funded because these guys can be trusted! Then this game will change the way MMO's are thought of!