Do some people just not forgive?

[AndaliteBandit]

See that's the problem with some people, they can't forgive even after it's been years since the thing occurred. You really hold this guy accountable after 20 something years still? I wouldn't hold a murderer accountable after 20 years, that's 20 years of his life and whether you like to believe this or not, when the murderer kills someone and people argue that the victim had years left of his life... It's over, the victim doesn't care nor even have a conscious to give a flying fuck unlike the murderer who did.

When in a controlled environment and dealt with accordingly, people can be rehabilitated and I often believe our efforts should be more thrown towards people with serious crimes committed so we can get them out so they can live in society. Also having a record defeats the entire purpose of trying to get them back in society, in fact it often makes them commit another crime.

You can tell anyone that people who commit rape, murder, bad things to children, etc. don't deserve their humanity back but you forget one thing, they're humans too and once they've served their time (also we should most definitely attempt to rehabilitate) then it's done. Holding on does nothing but make you less of a human yourself.

Sure as hell sounds like you have a guilty conscience.

[Duronos]

Sure as hell sounds like you have a guilty conscience.

Sure as hell sounds like you're being a jerk instead of making a proper counterargument.

^^ That above, that's called a one sentence response and it requires minimal intelligence to do it. I'm not saying your small-minded but just clearly pointing out that just about anyone can do that.

[Templar 331]

Yes because they're still alive, if you care about the other persons remaining years that they never were going to receive then that's just you being selfish in your own regards.

No, that is caring about someone losing their life. This isn't an item they can buy, it's something once gone so are they. If it was up to me, we'd execute the murderer. But most people don't want to do that so the punishment is imprisonment.

The person that died does not give a flying fuck that they died because it's impossible,

I'm absolutely positive that when they were alive that they wanted to stay that way. By your logic, someone can just go around killing people for thrills and no one should care because "hey, they're dead so they don't care."

how about we help the remaining person who is alive and fix that problem instead of eternally punishing him.

If it's a problem that can be fixed, it should be fixed before hand. Once the crime has been committed, punishment is what needs to follow. And then after that, rehabilitation. Lessening a sentence isn't rehabilitation, it's weakening the justice system.

I'd rather be murdered than sit in a prison for 25 years and you know why? Because I won't exist to be able to give a fuck about my possible years.

Nice false dichotomy there. We imprison criminals whether they want it or not. That is the punishment. If you don't want to be punished, don't do the crime. In this case, don't kill people. It's not that hard.

When people bring up the victim's future I just think? "Really you're bringing that up when in actuality the victim doesn't even care yet you guys do? Talk about selfish". Sorry but that's just the full reality, we like seeing others fall and when one person falls we lay down the law like there's no fucking tomorrow (at least in the US) just to be assholes.

It's called empathy. Just because someone died doesn't mean they should have. We "lay down the law" because as a society we have laws and they are (mostly) clear in what we can and can't do. And when we do something that we can't do, we get punished. That is true for everyone. We enjoy seeing someone punished because they didn't follow the law and have received the proper punishment.

[Awbee]

So the murderer's remaining years are more important than the lost years of his victim?

Yes because they're still alive (...)
The person that died does not give a flying fuck that they died because it's impossible

Well, then it seems like the simplest solution is to kill the murderer. He won't care about it, by your own admission. He won't give a flying fuck if we murder him.

Also, can I murder you to get your stuff? You said people don't care about being murdered, so ...

[Lyllian]

Forgiving people is not only morally wrong but also highly counter productive.

The act of forgiving someone results in the following:

1) It encourages bad / criminal behaviour against the victim - if you forgive someone, then it basically tells them that its okay to treat you badly because you will let them off.

2) It makes it more likely that the criminal / abuser will go on to harm other innocent people, because they know that there is no deterrent to their actions.

By forgiving someone, you are actually making the world a worse place, and are as much a part of the problem as the original criminal.

Criminals should be severely punished, and executed when the crime warrants it, rehabilitated if possible but never released, never forgiven and always shamed in front of their peers.

[Duronos]

You guys totally missed my point... Killing is wrong but you hold it against someone for far too long.

I can't believe how disturbing some of you are, it saddens me. Shows a lack of progress.

[Beartastic]

It's the same thing like what happened with Cory Monteith (the kid that died of a Heroin addiction and was cast in Glee). He was addicted to drugs, and OD'd, yet everyone will remember him as some sort of sweetheart because that's how the media spun it. "It was so tragic" they all said...

And because that's how the media spun Tyson's tale, no one will ever forget him as such... ever, sadly.

[Awbee]

You guys totally missed my point... Killing is wrong but you hold it against someone for far too long.

I can't believe how disturbing some of you are, it saddens me. Shows a lack of progress.

I personally find your disregard and callousness for the victims of murder and the dead in general to be disturbing and saddening.

You still didn't reply to my question. If the dead don't care about being dead and thus murder isn't so bad, why shouldn't we murder the murderer? And wh not you? Would you care about being dead, if you're dead? You said you wouldn't.

[Deleted]

You guys totally missed my point... Killing is wrong but you hold it against someone for far too long.

I can't believe how disturbing some of you are, it saddens me. Shows a lack of progress.

Progress? You can forgive if it makes you feel better, but if you forget, well, you're not the smartest person.
You NEVER progress if you don't learn from "mistakes" you and others made.

[Deleted]

I will forgive most people once. Everyone deserves a second chance. Break that trust a second time, and there wont be a third.

[Duronos]

I personally find your disregard and callousness for the victims of murder and the dead in general to be disturbing and saddening.

You still didn't reply to my question. If the dead don't care about being dead and thus murder isn't so bad, why shouldn't we murder the murderer? And wh not you? Would you care about being dead, if you're dead? You said you wouldn't.

You're still missing the entire point, the entire point of the justice system is not justice. It's revenge and you know who's it for? Not the victim who's dead but people who knew him/her on an emotional level. To me that entire viewpoint seems skewed, we should sentence them to such and such years and rehabilitate them because chances are they are not a serial killer and killed one person out of malice, it's a fixable issue.

The victim does not care nor does he/she even know what happened because their conscious ceases to exist. Look this may be hard to believe but I have dealt with this before and I forgave in the end because I realized that there was no reason to hold it against someone once they have truly changed, the victim is dead, time moves on without them.

I wouldn't care about being dead because well.. It's not possible to know if I have no conscious. Killing is still wrong because it is the most permanent act that can be done in this reality and it must be avoided at all costs but to hold a killer accountable years after it happened and he/she has served their time? No but I do believe we need to get rid of records and make more of an effort to rehabilitate.

[Templar 331]

You're still missing the entire point, the entire point of the justice system is not justice. It's revenge and you know who's it for? Not the victim who's dead but people who knew him/her on an emotional level.

And that is where you are wrong, just like with other things. The justice system is about retribution. A person commits a crime, they have to pay the price for it. It's part of living in a society. We have rules that if are broken have consequences. Lessening the consequences weakens the effect of the justice system.

we should sentence them to such and such years and rehabilitate them because chances are they are not a serial killer and killed one person out of malice, it's a fixable issue.

That one person matters, whether you think so or not. They lost their life because of that one murder. That one murder shouldn't have ever happened. And in order to avoid it happening again, the murderer should either be locked away from society for good or executed. If he/she is willing to kill one person what's stopping him/her from doing it again? "Oh, I only killed that guy because he did this to me. I won't do it again, I promise." No, he/she is willing to break the law once he/she is libel to do it again. Especially if the punishment isn't worth worrying about.

The victim does not care nor does he/she even know what happened because their conscious ceases to exist.

Again with this crap? I'm sure that person wanted to keep existing. Do you know what stopped that? Someone murdering him/her.

Look this may be hard to believe but I have dealt with this before and I forgave in the end because I realized that there was no reason to hold it against someone once they have truly changed, the victim is dead, time moves on without them.

I very much doubt this. Either the person that was murdered wasn't very close or important to you or wasn't intentionally killed. An accidental death I can understand being forgiven, but a murder? Not buying that.

No but I do believe we need to get rid of records and make more of an effort to rehabilitate.

This has to be the most asinine thing you've said so far. "Let's all just forget Bob killed someone. It'll make his life easier and we don't need to worry about if he's going to kill someone else."

All in all, this is just a convoluted coping mechanism to make you feel better at the risk of endangering everyone else in society.

[Duronos]

And that is where you are wrong, just like with other things. The justice system is about retribution. A person commits a crime, they have to pay the price for it. It's part of living in a society. We have rules that if are broken have consequences. Lessening the consequences weakens the effect of the justice system.



That one person matters, whether you think so or not. They lost their life because of that one murder. That one murder shouldn't have ever happened. And in order to avoid it happening again, the murderer should either be locked away from society for good or executed. If he/she is willing to kill one person what's stopping him/her from doing it again? "Oh, I only killed that guy because he did this to me. I won't do it again, I promise." No, he/she is willing to break the law once he/she is libel to do it again. Especially if the punishment isn't worth worrying about.



Again with this crap? I'm sure that person wanted to keep existing. Do you know what stopped that? Someone murdering him/her.



I very much doubt this. Either the person that was murdered wasn't very close or important to you or wasn't intentionally killed. An accidental death I can understand being forgiven, but a murder? Not buying that.



This has to be the most asinine thing you've said so far. "Let's all just forget Bob killed someone. It'll make his life easier and we don't need to worry about if he's going to kill someone else."

All in all, this is just a convoluted coping mechanism to make you feel better at the risk of endangering everyone else in society.

I hate to point this out but you sound exactly like most people I've met in the South (Georgia right). They all believe in super harsh punishments for any kind of crime yet have no knowledge of how rehabilitation works decently well in the Swedish prison system and more often than not ex-cons do not go back.

Look, results matter, saying something because you believe it due to your parents or whoever you were surrounded by as a kid doesn't matter.

[Templar 331]

I hate to point this out but you sound exactly like most people I've met in the South (Georgia right). They all believe in super harsh punishments for any kind of crime yet have no knowledge of how rehabilitation works decently well in the Swedish prison system and more often than not ex-cons do not go back.

Look, results matter, saying something because you believe it due to your parents or whoever you were surrounded by as a kid doesn't matter.

I hate to break it to you, but rehabilitation doesn't work for every crime. For minor crimes, it can work. But for murder? Not a chance I'm willing to bet my or anyone's life on. And there is also culture to factor in. People in Sweden are different than people in the U.S.

[Duronos]

I hate to break it to you, but rehabilitation doesn't work for every crime. For minor crimes, it can work. But for murder? Not a chance I'm willing to bet my or anyone's life on. And there is also culture to factor in. People in Sweden are different than people in the U.S.

I can agree but often not it's because we make sure people can't be forgiven in the US which I personally think is a cultural flaw, slightly savage if you ask me.