House Votes To Limit Spying On Americans

[ringpriest]

I remember seeing an article related to those guys who released all of the data for Snowden, apparently they haven't been able to find a single case where an American was harmed by having their data taken.

To take just one type of harm done by NSA surveillance, look at parallel construction. The NSA has been (unlawfully) handing over intel to the DEA. The agencies have been trying to hide this use of NSA data, likely because it's illegal, an abuse of an already questionable surveillance program, clearly unconstitutional, and destroys the basic premise of Amercian law (defendants are allowed to confront their accusers in court). While we don't know how many people have been unjustly charged and imprisoned, senior DEA officials trying to defend parallel construction say they use it, "every day".

[Orange Joe]

You've never read any George Orwell, have you? I guess that isn't assigned reading in High School. Read 1984, then make the same statement.

Why should I listen to a work of fiction?

[Sunseeker]

I'd be surprised if they didn't abuse their position to do things like look for embarrassing emails, phone calls, or whatever during down time.

I'd expect them to because I sure as hell know I would.

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Why should I listen to a work of fiction?

Because reading is good for you?

[Orange Joe]

I'd expect them to because I sure as hell know I would.

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Because reading is good for you?

I read all the time. What I don't do is read fiction and try to apply it to my ideology. Especially fiction.

[Sunseeker]

I read all the time. What I don't do is read fiction and try to apply it to my ideology. Especially fiction.

I take it then you've never read Locke, Hobbes or any other political theorist who wrote a book?

[Kellhound]

I remember seeing an article related to those guys who released all of the data for Snowden, apparently they haven't been able to find a single case where an American was harmed by having their data taken.

What has been harmed is the Constitution. The Bill of Rights was not called the Bill of Suggestions for a good reason.

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I take it then you've never read Locke, Hobbes or any other political theorist who wrote a book?

Does Calvin and Hobbes count?

[Reeve]

I read all the time. What I don't do is read fiction and try to apply it to my ideology. Especially fiction.

The majority of people in the world do read fiction and apply it to their ideologies.

[Orange Joe]

I take it then you've never read Locke, Hobbes or any other political theorist who wrote a book?

Nope, that isn't my type of reading material. I was mostly talking about fiction as that was the book that was brought up.

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The majority of people in the world do read fiction and apply it to their ideologies.

If you are talking about what I think you are I'm not going to touch that subject :P

[Sunseeker]

Nope, that isn't my type of reading material. I was mostly talking about fiction as that was the book that was brought up.

A lot of theorists use hypothetical examples (basically a short fiction) to demonstrate their point.

I always recommend reading some Locke, Hobbes and Marx. Really covers the basics of where most governments draw their ideas these days.

I do find certain fictions beneficial to political learning. Sure, it's not "real" in the sense that its never happened, but it's that sort of hypothetical "here's what could happen and here's why that is bad." that is good to think about.

[Reeve]

A lot of theorists use hypothetical examples (basically a short fiction) to demonstrate their point.

I always recommend reading some Locke, Hobbes and Marx. Really covers the basics of where most governments draw their ideas these days.

I do find certain fictions beneficial to political learning. Sure, it's not "real" in the sense that its never happened, but it's that sort of hypothetical "here's what could happen and here's why that is bad." that is good to think about.

Keynes too.

[Sunseeker]

Keynes too.

Yep. Though I haven't personally gotten a chance to actually read his books.

[Kellhound]

Keynes too.

Don't forget Niccolo Machiavelli

[Twotonsteak]

Nothing will change except it will be less public, every country spies on its citizens and it is common sense to do so.

Pretty much this.

Technically we're already supposed to be protected under the Bill of Rights. And that never stopped the Feds before. Whats ignoring one more law mean? Especially when you're dealing with groups (the CIA, FBI, NSA) who excel at working around laws to get what they want.