[Holy] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[btard]

i've created a sim of our economic rotation
10 min fight, casting only LoD, EF, HS and HL

no dp, no 4pc: 44.4 LoDs
no dp, 4pc: 46.6 LoDs, 11.6 EFs

dp, no 4pc: 58.9 LoDs
dp, 4pc: 67.7 LoDs, 15.6 EFs

without dp and 4pc we will cast finishers 8.9% of the time. we use LoD every 13.5 secs on the average.
with dp and 4pc we will cast finishers 16.7% of the time. we use LoD every 8.9 sec on the average.

I dont think it's worth using DP over HA even with 4pc. The difference between 4pc and dp+4pc is 21.1 LoDs and 4 EFs. using HA 5 times during a 10-minute encounter will give you about 16.7 extra LoDs, so by using DP over HA you get 4.4 LoDs and 4 EFs. HA on the other hand gives you a 30% healing bonus to HS and HR and a controlled burst.
But without DP our 4pc doesn't feels so powerful, it just gives 2 extra LoD and 11.6 extra EFs, or rather WoGs, since 1.2 EF/minute is not enough to take EF over SS either.

I guess we should definitely ask blizzard to buff LoD to 10k since CoH, uplift and HRain heal for 10k each.

http://ideone.com/1V5rbo if anyone ever wants to check that

[Deleted]

i've created a sim of our economic rotation
10 min fight, casting only LoD, EF, HS and HL

no dp, no 4pc: 44.4 LoDs
no dp, 4pc: 46.6 LoDs, 11.6 EFs

dp, no 4pc: 58.9 LoDs
dp, 4pc: 67.7 LoDs, 15.6 EFs

without dp and 4pc we will cast finishers 8.9% of the time. we use LoD every 13.5 secs on the average.
with dp and 4pc we will cast finishers 16.7% of the time. we use LoD every 8.9 sec on the average.

I dont think it's worth using DP over HA even with 4pc. The difference between 4pc and dp+4pc is 21.1 LoDs and 4 EFs. using HA 5 times during a 10-minute encounter will give you about 16.7 extra LoDs, so by using DP over HA you get 4.4 LoDs and 4 EFs. HA on the other hand gives you a 30% healing bonus to HS and HR and a controlled burst.
But without DP our 4pc doesn't feels so powerful, it just gives 2 extra LoD and 11.6 extra EFs, or rather WoGs, since 1.2 EF/minute is not enough to take EF over SS either.

I guess we should definitely ask blizzard to buff LoD to 10k since CoH, uplift and HRain heal for 10k each.

http://ideone.com/1V5rbo if anyone ever wants to check that

Fix the final write to 4pc instead of no 4pc. The actual code is fine.

Why are you throwing LoD instead of EF on 5 holy power?

I dont think it's worth using DP over HA even with 4pc. The difference between 4pc and dp+4pc is 21.1 LoDs and 4 EFs. using HA 5 times during a 10-minute encounter will give you about 16.7 extra LoDs, so by using DP over HA you get 4.4 LoDs and 4 EFs. HA on the other hand gives you a 30% healing bonus to HS and HR and a controlled burst.

Doesn't take into account mana efficiency, overhealing and Holy Radiance inefficiency.

That being said, I've seen HA stand toe to toe with DP simply because DP is random and procs when it wants not when you want(while HA is fully controlled) and because lets face it its not like LoD or EF actually heal for anything.

[Juicyjonny]

Yes, yes I do. Being a tank healer is what this class was for years. It's the reason I selected the class. I was a Cleric in EQ and a Terran Trader in Earth and Beyond. I was a tank healer. I'm used to single-target heals and being the foundation upon which the raid is built upon. Holy Paladins were my class and then it was taken from me because of bullshit 10-man "fairness" and homogenization. I found managing mana far more fun than spamming HR or now shocking, judging, using HR and using your finisher. This class was probably at it's best in Firelands when our primary healing style was single target, but we had a great CD with HR. The goal should be to bring the class to that point again where single-target is the primary healing style and AoE should be either a solid finisher or a CD-based HR. Now that 10-man is no longer a concern we can have a semi-niche again.

You know that 10 mans will become irrelevant, so being a healer that does nothing except heal 1 target at time (with the exception of beacon) doesn't exactly make our class worth the spot. All of the fights so far in beta were 100% doable without a paladin (If anything were easier when you brought in ANYTHING but a paladin healer). Do not put all your cards in one basket by assuming that "guilds can't do without a tank healer". Every single one of the classes currently in beta are capable of mimicking what we do, except they do it better. Not sure why you think being a 'single target' healer would be a niche; it only weakens us and makes us obsolete.

From the history lesson about yourself it just confirms my thoughts about the 'old casual' paladins being incorrigible and without the ability to adapt to changing circumstances. Let go of the past...

[btard]

Fix the final write to 4pc instead of no 4pc. The actual code is fine.

Why are you throwing LoD instead of EF on 5 holy power?

I wanted to use LoD as my main finisher and cast EF only on procs. I would get a completely free healing from EF that way. I can use 60 SS for 270+k mana, so this is the question of shield efficiency and overhealing of other spells (HR, HL). 270k is a lot of mana and if i can spent that amount as efficient as SS elsewhere, it's better to take free EF since i will cast some WoGs anyway.

I've swapped LoD and EF. The numbers are a bit lower since 4pc procs with 20% chance for a free LoD

http://ideone.com/ae7PEh

no dp, no 4pc: 44.4 EFs
no dp, 4pc: 46.5 EFs, 9.3 LoDs

dp, no 4pc: 58.9 EFs
dp, 4pc: 66.7 EFs, 12.5 LoDs

Doesn't take into account mana efficiency, overhealing and Holy Radiance inefficiency.

That being said, I've seen HA stand toe to toe with DP simply because DP is random and procs when it wants not when you want(while HA is fully controlled) and because lets face it its not like LoD or EF actually heal for anything.

HA is even better because it can be combined with wings

HA+wings -2min- HA -2min- HA+wings or
HA+wings -3min- HA+wings or
HA+glyphed wings -2min - HA+glyphed wings

It depends on the encounter however if it's worth to delay wings or HA like that. Even if you use both as soon as they are off cooldown, a lot of HA burst windows will be during wings, while DP will mostly proc outside of wings.

[Perkunas]

You know that 10 mans will become irrelevant, so being a healer that does nothing except heal 1 target at time (with the exception of beacon) doesn't exactly make our class worth the spot. All of the fights so far in beta were 100% doable without a paladin (If anything were easier when you brought in ANYTHING but a paladin healer). Do not put all your cards in one basket by assuming that "guilds can't do without a tank healer". Every single one of the classes currently in beta are capable of mimicking what we do, except they do it better. Not sure why you think being a 'single target' healer would be a niche; it only weakens us and makes us obsolete.

From the history lesson about yourself it just confirms my thoughts about the 'old casual' paladins being incorrigible and without the ability to adapt to changing circumstances. Let go of the past...

I actually was forced to PVP on my Paladin because the PVE was so terribly boring. Homogenization ruined the class and in my opinion healing in general. Also, you seemed to ignore where I said the perfect balance would be more along the lines of the Firelands Holy Pally and not my extreme (BC/Wrath) vs your extreme (DS and onward). I'm perfectly fine to accept changes so long as the spirit of the class remains there. The current Holy Pally is NOTHING like it was before it doesn't even feel like the same class at all except in PVP. The only thing that current PVE Holy Pallys have in common with those from the past is ugly looking tier sets. Buff LoD, WoG, buff HR, but remove the HP generation and put it on a CD again. Just don't sit here and tell me I'm a stubborn old coot when you are doing the same thing now that I've been doing since Dragon Soul.

[Juicyjonny]

Buff LoD, WoG, buff HR.

I agree 100%.

[nightfalls]

Going to repeat it, the "niche" of "tank healer" might sound appealing to the old crowd, until you realize that not only has tank healing requirements decreased, but, unlike the past, all healer specs (not just the traditionally "dedicated tank healing" ones like Paladin and Disc Priest to a lesser extent) are capable of doing very respectable tank healing.

Having that as a niche with no other ability is not going to get you anywhere, because all other specs are just as capable of keeping up the tank while also contributing valuable raid throughput.

If you want that whole, old, "tank healer only" thing back, you need to look not just at making sure tank damage is high, but that other classes have their single target ability nuked, or those that don't, have their ability to do really anything else nuked as well.

[Perkunas]

I agree 100%.

Still want a removal of the HP generation from HR and a cooldown on it like the older version.

- - - Updated - - -

Going to repeat it, the "niche" of "tank healer" might sound appealing to the old crowd, until you realize that not only has tank healing requirements decreased, but, unlike the past, all healer specs (not just the traditionally "dedicated tank healing" ones like Paladin and Disc Priest to a lesser extent) are capable of doing very respectable tank healing.

Having that as a niche with no other ability is not going to get you anywhere, because all other specs are just as capable of keeping up the tank while also contributing valuable raid throughput.

If you want that whole, old, "tank healer only" thing back, you need to look not just at making sure tank damage is high, but that other classes have their single target ability nuked, or those that don't, have their ability to do really anything else nuked as well.

Not asking for the BC/Wrath Holy Pally. People seem to completely ignore the part where I'm saying the best version of this class was the Firelands version.

[MCC]

Not asking for the BC/Wrath Holy Pally. People seem to completely ignore the part where I'm saying the best version of this class was the Firelands version.

Firelands? Is that when we had zilch for AoE healing because of an unreasonably long cooldown on HR?

Thanks but no thanks.

[Leefa]

Firelands? Is that when we had zilch for AoE healing because of an unreasonably long cooldown on HR?

Thanks but no thanks.

In itself this would be a bad change. However, as part of a bigger picture with no holy power I would support it being a semi-long healing cooldown and Light of Dawn being the go-to AoE heal. So if done right, this change could be great - however it requires a pretty big change to the spec which I doubt we're likely to get.

[Perkunas]

Firelands? Is that when we had zilch for AoE healing because of an unreasonably long cooldown on HR?

Thanks but no thanks.

Still had LoD.

[MCC]

Still had LoD.

Yeah, and it was woefully inadequate for any realistic AoE healing situations, hence "zilch for AoE". I was pigeon-holed as a tank healer back then. Not itching to get into the same hole again, thank you very much.

- - - Updated - - -

In itself this would be a bad change. However, as part of a bigger picture with no holy power I would support it being a semi-long healing cooldown and Light of Dawn being the go-to AoE heal. So if done right, this change could be great - however it requires a pretty big change to the spec which I doubt we're likely to get.

That would require a much higher holy power generation, which they already don't like. I don't mind splitting AoE healing between a finisher and one or more other spells, but even that is not happening right now. Not with LoD healing for, what, 4K per target?

[Juicyjonny]

Firelands? Is that when we had zilch for AoE healing because of an unreasonably long cooldown on HR?

Thanks but no thanks.

Thank you... Apparently Perkunas didn't raid in Firelands.

[Leefa]

That would require a much higher holy power generation, which they already don't like. I don't mind splitting AoE healing between a finisher and one or more other spells, but even that is not happening right now. Not with LoD healing for, what, 4K per target?

You obviously didn't read what I wrote.

[Deleted]

Firelands? Is that when we had zilch for AoE healing because of an unreasonably long cooldown on HR?

Thanks but no thanks.

You had much much higher aoe healing in Firelands(for insanely less mana) than what you'll have (at least) in the first tier of WoD.

[MCC]

You had much much higher aoe healing in Firelands(for insanely less mana) than what you'll have (at least) in the first tier of WoD.

True, but I don't want to revert to a bad setup simply because the current one is worse. I want holy paladins to be viable for raid healing.

[Perkunas]

True, but I don't want to revert to a bad setup simply because the current one is worse. I want holy paladins to be viable for raid healing.

Compared to Vanilla through Wrath Holy Paladins had tons of AoE output in Firelands and had more than they do currently in WoD.


Being somebody that dislikes being the AoE healer makes me an asshole. I'd say a 20 second CD on HR with a massive increase to it's heal and a decrease to it's cost would be more fun than the way it is currently. If the end result is that we're keeping HP I'd say it would have to either be baseline generation on Judgement or Crit Flash/Holy Light. I'd also like to see LoD buffed numbers-wise. HS also needs to be buffed because it's terribly shitty as it stands.

I wish they'd simply kill Holy Power, make EF baseline, LoD turns into basically a PoH, HR into an OH SHIT button, and Holy Shock would grant only IoF for HL and it'd be on every cast of HS but it would also heal for a solid amount. That'd be my ideal situation, but in my eyes LoD would not be our bread and butter. I'd still want us to be using single-target to be our primary source of with beacons but we shouldn't be laughed out of the raid when AoE damage is happening. It's probably more of a design shift in encounters that we'd have to see. Instead of groups taking damage I'd rather it be more individuals so AoE healing would be a waste in those cases.

[Pasture]

You had much much higher aoe healing in Firelands(for insanely less mana) than what you'll have (at least) in the first tier of WoD.

Firelands was probably the most fun I've ever had playing Holy Paladin. Perhaps it was because I was new to the spec at the time.

[Perkunas]

Firelands was probably the most fun I've ever had playing Holy Paladin. Perhaps it was because I was new to the spec at the time.

Most people who've played a Holy Paladin for a very long time have said the same thing.

[Colwynius]

So what are we suggesting?
- gain HoPo with Denounce instead of Crusader Strike
- a moderate buff for LoD
- an interesting proc for additional HoPo generation (besides the baseline HS) capability
- redesign HR and make it an instant finisher with a(n internal) CD which uses up all the banked HoPo