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  1. #1981
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    Besides the blue post already say NONE of the tier set bonuses have been balanced yet, so expect them all to be re-tuned
    the blue posts are full of shit because they iterated on the set bonuses for two weeks after they came out.. theyre just realizing they did a terrible job and now they're backtracking. welcome to blizzard.
    <celebrities> of perenolde 14/14H U.S. 37 10 Man -- Ret paladin/Resto druid
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  2. #1982
    Field Marshal Juicyjonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leefa View Post
    Reason: you will end up murdering the melee by staying there to use CS. It also leads to very broken playstyles (like in t14). Removing it would be the best solution.
    The slow HP is obviously something that needs to be fixed, and I guess once they nerf the 2p/4p to the ground or change them they might fix it.

    Which is why I proposed the idea of allowing Holy Paladins have the same luxury as Monks to be recognized as melee when healing so the boss doesn't do anything funny if you stand near him.

    Plus, not all bosses have some sort of mechanic that would AoE/Damage the melee if you stood on them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Exactly. All healers need to be able to heal AoE just like all healers are able to heal single targets, regardless of "niche" you have to be able to have some minimum ability to do everything in today's world (not being facetious).

    Judgment is purposely built so that its damage scales well for Ret and Prot and scales like absolute dog shit for Holy. Personally I'd up its scaling (since, at this point, it does nothing but damage anyway) to similar to Ret/Prot scaling so for pure damage its worth using over Denounce, or just remove/"prune" the ability altogether.

    Though that said, I don't believe attention needs to be focused to questing as Holy. You have offspec for a reason and with the new "auto-change" loot I could care less about people stubbornly questing in a healer spec.
    I think the facetious response was to Xs when he said replace the tier bonus with 5% mana gain which is possibly the worst bonus I have ever seen. That is like Vanilla type bonuses on 8 pieces tier sets.

    Sure, scale it if they want. But that is not something anyone should be focused on. Who the hell gives a crap about your judgement damage? I wouldn't remove the ability. Nothing wrong with it.

    No one is silly enough to level as Holy... If you see them give me their name.
    14/14HM Holy Paladin

  3. #1983
    Considering the fact that we use shields and plate armor, the idea that we aren't intended to stand in melee seems off. Not every fight has a penalty for standing in melee, so CS HP generation is going to be a thing if they allow it. My preference is to keep it and give us melee immunity.

  4. #1984
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    1) 30 pages earlier in this forum people were complaining that they don't enjoy 'having so much HP' and this led to beacon swapping which was FANTASTIC because the more HP the better.... So Blizzard answered the cries and they removed the HP generation and solved the issue where you no longer have to worry about your beacons because there was no point to it and there was a mana punishment for swapping.... You guys asked for it and now it's not fun anymore.

    2) "If" they are going to remove CS and replace it with something else that provides HP generation then I will agree with you and that is fine. But to remove it all together just because they don't want to be melee'ing the boss or have another button on my bar to reduce clutter then that is dumb.

    3) In regards to melee healing I don't actually mean that we are our heals are based on our attacks. I mean that we should just be allowed to stand in melee to heal.
    1. There is a difference between "spam these 4 buttons, generate HP with 3 of them, and spend it with the other" and "spend your holy power every 15 seconds or so". These are two extremes and we are looking for something inbetween.

    2. That's what everyone meant by removing CS - give something real instead.

    3. I think melee protection is something everyone wouldn't mind if difference between a melee and ranged hpala stays the same without the 4set.

  5. #1985
    Quote Originally Posted by Akam3x View Post
    Edit:Also would it be worth considering speccing into EF + DP but spamming x1 HoPo LoDs to proc x3 HoPo EFs? (4P any LoDs proc EFs as if they were x3 HoPo ones,as opposed to our x1 HoPo ones) or would that be a waste HPS-wise? You also have to consider that a 2/4P proc can proc its alternative as well,so maybe it'll just be reluctant,but since I suck at math and napkin math probably isn't going to be too accurate for this I'm asking here.
    Forgot to respond to you earlier when Juicy wandered in.

    Its likely that the 4 pc (if implemented correctly), has the same HP coefficient as DP, so using 1HP's would have a pitiful proc chance. That on-top of the raw HPS you actually need to put out being cut drastically unless the gods bless you, I don't think its valid.

  6. #1986
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    WHY WHY WHY WHY?!?! PLEASE TELL ME WHY DO YOU WANT US NOT TO GAIN HP?!?

    First we get complaints about people and the beacon swap so now we generate HP slow as F***
    Now you want us to have CS not generate HP?? Is there reasoning behind this?

    If anyone they should make holy paladin a melee compatible class like monks so that we can stand in melee and not be targeted as range.
    "WHY WHY WHY"? Have you thought that maybe the people complaining about slow HoPo generation and those complaining about CS *maybe* aren't the same people :O?!?!?!? OH MY GOD!!! WHY WHY WHY ?????

    Us becoming melee isn't happening this late in the BETA,drop it.Whether you like it or not.Drop it.Not happening for better or worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelgabriel View Post
    Considering the fact that we use shields and plate armor, the idea that we aren't intended to stand in melee seems off. Not every fight has a penalty for standing in melee, so CS HP generation is going to be a thing if they allow it. My preference is to keep it and give us melee immunity.
    Yes,we use CS if we can,it is a benefit,but it's a horrible mechanic."If you're in melee you can now press a button that doesn't really do anything but gives you x1 HoPo and you need to press it,simply because your toolkit is severely lacking" - a melee spell that doesn't do any direct healing you have to cast and to top it off your class isn't even safe in melee is just awkward.They can easily give us something better instead of CS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Forgot to respond to you earlier when Juicy wandered in.

    Its likely that the 4 pc (if implemented correctly), has the same HP coefficient as DP, so using 1HP's would have a pitiful proc chance. That on-top of the raw HPS you actually need to put out being cut drastically unless the gods bless you, I don't think its valid.
    Yeah I guess so, but that's probably not even worth talking about at this point considering the set bonuses are going to be changed
    Last edited by Akam3x; Yesterday at 09:45 PM.

  7. #1987
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    1) 30 pages earlier in this forum people were complaining that they don't enjoy 'having so much HP' and this led to beacon swapping which was FANTASTIC because the more HP the better.... So Blizzard answered the cries and they removed the HP generation and solved the issue where you no longer have to worry about your beacons because there was no point to it and there was a mana punishment for swapping.... You guys asked for it and now it's not fun anymore.

    2) "If" they are going to remove CS and replace it with something else that provides HP generation then I will agree with you and that is fine. But to remove it all together just because they don't want to be melee'ing the boss or have another button on my bar to reduce clutter then that is dumb.

    3) In regards to melee healing I don't actually mean that we are our heals are based on our attacks. I mean that we should just be allowed to stand in melee to heal.
    No they didn't. They said they didn't like the spamming holy light on beacon playstyle(or the beacon macro playstyle). Stop over dramatizing and putting words into everyone's posts. People are fine gaining holy power at a decent pace, they just want a varied playstyle. And if you really think the devs only changed it because players asked for it, you aren't paying attention (it pulled high numbers while using barely any mana, it was not balanced).

    Keeping HP generation on CS means it needs to be included in our spec balancing. It needs go away so it isn't required to chance wiping the raid to play the spec to its full potential.
    14/14H Resto Shaman and Holy Paladin

  8. #1988
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Hey all!

    So spent a little time this weekend in LFR playing around with different combos and here's some more feedback to add to the growing list(s) we've all been adding to:

    *T17 Set Bonus. I think it works well with either an EF build or LoD build. In testing with DP, yeah, it got a little our of hand at times because of RNG. If they kept the proc chance the same and made it so that it had no interaction with DP, I think it would help solve a lot of the "OP"ness of the bonus/DP combo. The other way it could be adjusted is to put an ICD on the set bonuses so that chaining isn't possible as it is now. Honestly, I felt that without the set bonuses, keeping up was near impossible.

    *Lack Of On Demand AOE. Let's face it, we're screwed here and it hurts when you have no way to catch up the raid. Granted it was LFR and people are morons in LFR, but not having any AOE catch up is painful. Yes, it's been like this forever, but with the amount of squishing down, it's even more noticeable now and with out the DP/T17 combo (see above), I couldn't see any other option than to HR (which was fleeting and I gave up after the first attempt).

    *SS vs. EF. I toyed with both (considering that depending on how the T17 "fix" goes, good to experience both ways). SS ended being top "healing" done with a crit and haste build and didn't bother with mastery. Like others have posted, SS is expensive in comparison to anything else we can cast (excluding HR ofc) and felt myself running somewhat dry at the end (which isn't a bad thing but in comparison to the other builds, this one felt mana starved by the end). As far as EF, we all know how that plays and it felt like I was only casting EF to proc DP/T17 bonuses which by all accounts shouldn't be "working as intended".

    *Beacons. I don't like BoI, period. The healing boost is decent, the way that thing flies around from any heal (even though tooltip says "Direct healing", EF HoTs, PotI heals were popping this as I was casting on the target). Pretty sure that's a bug, but it just made the whole experience very meh. Swapped to BoF and felt like I was much more productive as a healer. I wasn't simply looking for my BoI to heal, I was triaging people that needed healing the most. I'm sure the bug will get worked out of BoI and on paper it is slightly higher healing, but at the cost of not being in control of who you are healing for the extra % points, I don't know. I'm on the fence.

    *T90. Lackluster. I got to a point where I just stopped using HP because it heals for so little and I'd rather use the GCD on a casted HL. Don't get me wrong, they aren't spectacular on live, but they feel even more pitiful on Beta. Light's Hammer felt just as bad and ES, lol. All in all, the whole tier is just plain meh.

    Aside from that, the rest of the feedback falls in line with what others have said. HP generation is paltry and just felt like I was waiting forever and a day to cast a finisher. I really cannot think of another class with a secondary resource that has to wait this long to use their points/stacks. It slows things down way too far imo. Yes I know, comparing a healer to a dps with combo points isn't the same, but it was more for comparison. How much fun would a Rogue be if the amount of time it took to generate combo points to finisher tripled?

    Anyway, thank you all for your continued feedback. I hope the Holy Paladin community continues this strong into WoD with the number of people jumping ship to other class (I don't blame you tbh, I just don't feel like main swapping again lol). Cheers!
    Last edited by Verdell; Yesterday at 09:49 PM.

  9. #1989
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    1) 30 pages earlier in this forum people were complaining that they don't enjoy 'having so much HP' and this led to beacon swapping which was FANTASTIC because the more HP the better....
    There's only one person on this forum who ever complained HP generation was too fast in general. Curse them.

    Others complained using HR / Beacon to generate HP is bad play, but this was usually countered with another suggestion on how we should generate HP instead, ie keep HP generation at a similar speed but make its generation part of a proper play style.

  10. #1990
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    Which is why I proposed the idea of allowing Holy Paladins have the same luxury as Monks to be recognized as melee when healing so the boss doesn't do anything funny if you stand near him.

    Plus, not all bosses have some sort of mechanic that would AoE/Damage the melee if you stood on them.
    The issue we're going to see if CS is allowed to stay as a HoPo generator is there will be a huge difference between our ability to heal at range versus in melee. Even if they allowed us to properly be in melee like mistweavers, that issue will pop up especially once tier bonuses are factored in. If I recall correctly Blizzard already nerfed Seal of Insight during Cataclysm so that it didn't return mana since paladins were staying in melee to get the mana and thus had a huge edge in healing.

    I, and it seems plenty of others, would much rather CS didn't generate HoPo and we were allowed to have something at range to compensate so that we could indeed generate more than our current glacial HoPo pace of a finisher every 15 seconds.

    And you're right, not every fight would screw us over by being in melee. But the fact that being in melee would be much better than being at range means we'd be far too swingy depending on the fight. As healers it's our job to be as consistent as we can be so the raid is stable and stuff doesn't blow the raid up.

    By the way, I've leveled as holy before, though not the entire time. Mostly 70-80. I had gotten to 70 with prot. I found the different playstyle of being able to sit back and kill stuff with holy damage was a nice change of pace from getting in enemies' faces as prot or ret. Granted, that was during WotLK and thus a different story, but it was still something I am nostalgic about and would look forward to again. The 4.0 patch where we were stuck at 80 but had the Cataclysm revamp was actually fun when I went as holy DPS and regularly did 6k DPS in dungeons simply spamming exorcism with HS and J in between, and running in with holy wrath and consecration for AoE. I was very often top or 2nd DPS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  11. #1991
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackielope View Post
    Blizzard already nerfed Seal of Insight during Cataclysm so that it didn't return mana since paladins were staying in melee to get the mana and thus had a huge edge in healing.
    5.4 Not Cata

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