[Retribution] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[Reghame]

I don't know if there's some "Lol error" here but Harsh words is hitting harder then FV. MIGHT change during Cd's(AW) but...I find this...odd.

it shouldnt be, as the co-efficient should be much lower than the actual heal, which is 21k at 3 HP.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Are you calculating the HoL and seal damage?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Seperate. I might check later. Some suggested HoL be merged with the respective abilities. (As in the damage HoL does is merged into the abilities it buffs).

[Lumineus]

it shouldnt be, as the co-efficient should be much lower than the actual heal, which is 21k at 3 HP.

The tooltip actually gives a slightly higher coefficient for the damage version (like 11% SP or so). That's why I wondered why it was considered underwhelming. 21k is almost twice the damage of physical TV after armor reduction. Mastery is... well it's not good, and it's definitely not that good.

Are you calculating the ... seal damage?

Verdict has never procced Seal of Truth. The code base was lazily copypasta'd from old physical DS, to the point where in pre-Cata patch it was reduced 75% on Champs and DBSF's adds. As a result, the only seal it activates is Righteousness.

[Lunavale]

Verdict has never procced Seal of Truth. The code base was lazily copypasta'd from old physical DS, to the point where in pre-Cata patch it was reduced 75% on Champs and DBSF's adds. As a result, the only seal it activates is Righteousness.

This hasn't been the case for soooo long -.-

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

I feel seal damage should proc off all damaging attacks, but that's none of my business.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I feel seal damage should proc off all damaging attacks, but that's none of my business.

Censure or the initial SoT damage? If Censure, not worth it really. Compared to Live, it's much weaker. I wouldn't be surprised if by the WoD's first content patch it would be phased out.

[Fredzilla]

Censure or the initial SoT damage? If Censure, not worth it really. Compared to Live, it's much weaker. I wouldn't be surprised if by the WoD's first content patch it would be phased out.

If censure goes, seals as a whole might as well just kick the bucket. They each at least have to do something different than the others.

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

The tooltip actually gives a slightly higher coefficient for the damage version (like 11% SP or so). That's why I wondered why it was considered underwhelming. 21k is almost twice the damage of physical TV after armor reduction. Mastery is... well it's not good, and it's definitely not that good.


Verdict has never procced Seal of Truth. The code base was lazily copypasta'd from old physical DS, to the point where in pre-Cata patch it was reduced 75% on Champs and DBSF's adds. As a result, the only seal it activates is Righteousness.

<Snip>

Memes are not allowed.

- - - Updated - - -

Censure or the initial SoT damage? If Censure, not worth it really. Compared to Live, it's much weaker. I wouldn't be surprised if by the WoD's first content patch it would be phased out.

Initial Seal dmg. I wouldn't mind if censure got phased out, It has been annoying me from day one. Unless they made it work with all seals and it worked like a bleed.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

If censure goes, seals as a whole might as well just kick the bucket. They each at least have to do something different than the others.

Which I do advocate. The issue is seals atm aren't that interesting all that much. I also suspect Blizzard didn't do any massive change was because fear of "OMG MY PALLY /QUIT!!!"


Basically MoP Warlock syndrome. Also it's going to be Monday. SO FEEDBACK TIME!!!!

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I think Cenusre spreading is a decent "skill based" thing to manage, up to 3 targets it's definitely something you should do.
Righteous- well as boring as it might be it still requires the user to know when adds spawn, how many and how long they'll live to decide if it's a dps gain to seal swap for them. Yes on their own they're boring but what you have to do to make the best use out of the different seals isn't. Sure they could add something like when Censure ticks crit you get a 1% damage increase on your next finisher (TV/FV, DS, WoG/EF) but I find it extremely hard to give seals something meaningful without making them too complicated. The crit thing I suggested would go directly in the "passive" book and be completely ignored.

I haven't heard or seen a single good suggestion to make seals themselves more interactive, mostly dumb suggestions that would make seals (passive) into something you have to watch more than your holy power... It's fine as it is, maybe make Censure spreading stronger to encourage people doing it- maybe make Righteousnes increase the range of your abilities by X yards... but honestly seals are serving the purpose they're inteded to atm and it's not worth changing drastically how we use them.

Also, why does every single button have to be interesting? What makes a button interesting?
For me it makes absolutely zero difference if I hit Exorcism or Judgement, does that make them boring? Yeah sure, but that doesn't mean that they aren't serving a purpose...
It's Inquisition all over again...

[ruiizu]

I think Cenusre spreading is a decent "skill based" thing to manage, up to 3 targets it's definitely something you should do.
Righteous- well as boring as it might be it still requires the user to know when adds spawn, how many and how long they'll live to decide if it's a dps gain to seal swap for them. Yes on their own they're boring but what you have to do to make the best use out of the different seals isn't. Sure they could add something like when Censure ticks crit you get a 1% damage increase on your next finisher (TV/FV, DS, WoG/EF) but I find it extremely hard to give seals something meaningful without making them too complicated. The crit thing I suggested would go directly in the "passive" book and be completely ignored.

I haven't heard or seen a single good suggestion to make seals themselves more interactive, mostly dumb suggestions that would make seals (passive) into something you have to watch more than your holy power... It's fine as it is, maybe make Censure spreading stronger to encourage people doing it- maybe make Righteousnes increase the range of your abilities by X yards... but honestly seals are serving the purpose they're inteded to atm and it's not worth changing drastically how we use them.

Also, why does every single button have to be interesting? What makes a button interesting?
For me it makes absolutely zero difference if I hit Exorcism or Judgement, does that make them boring? Yeah sure, but that doesn't mean that they aren't serving a purpose...
It's Inquisition all over again...

Except Inquisition was just an awful idea to begin with. Exorcism and Judgment do actually do things: Exorcism reduces the damage you take (with glyph), and Judgment talented can make you run faster, make other people run slower, or make your Flash of Light stronger/more instant. They are abilities that can optionally be more interesting. Inquisition was just maintenance for the sake of maintenance, much the same as Seraphim, but Seraphim actually does something and has a cooldown (speeds up the rate you use abilities, you take less damage and deal more damage, etc). Maintenance buffs can be interesting, but Inquisition certainly wasn't. Much like EmpSeals: another maintenance buff in the long line of really bad ideas with good intent.

[Cronosmash]

I think Cenusre spreading is a decent "skill based" thing to manage, up to 3 targets it's definitely something you should do.
Righteous- well as boring as it might be it still requires the user to know when adds spawn, how many and how long they'll live to decide if it's a dps gain to seal swap for them. Yes on their own they're boring but what you have to do to make the best use out of the different seals isn't. Sure they could add something like when Censure ticks crit you get a 1% damage increase on your next finisher (TV/FV, DS, WoG/EF) but I find it extremely hard to give seals something meaningful without making them too complicated. The crit thing I suggested would go directly in the "passive" book and be completely ignored.

I haven't heard or seen a single good suggestion to make seals themselves more interactive, mostly dumb suggestions that would make seals (passive) into something you have to watch more than your holy power... It's fine as it is, maybe make Censure spreading stronger to encourage people doing it- maybe make Righteousnes increase the range of your abilities by X yards... but honestly seals are serving the purpose they're inteded to atm and it's not worth changing drastically how we use them.

Also, why does every single button have to be interesting? What makes a button interesting?
For me it makes absolutely zero difference if I hit Exorcism or Judgement, does that make them boring? Yeah sure, but that doesn't mean that they aren't serving a purpose...
It's Inquisition all over again...

My sugestion to the Devs was:

1) Reduce damage from some basic spells and increase the seal effects so there is a real reason to change seals from time to time.

Like, reduce CS/Judge/HotR/DS/HoW/TV/etc damage by 20% and increase all seals damage (except from insight) by 20%.

So if you don't swap seals for AoE/Snare/Healing it's really bad and if you don't swap back, it's a huge DPS loss.

BUT to finish this change, remove Seal of Truth from GCD.

So it's always worth the GCD/effort to CHANGE SEALS situationally and not a cluncky burden to swap it back.

Insight heals for more, Justice snare lasts longer (maybe physical?), Righteouss cleave 'em all right.

Think how this would feel on the gameplay.

2) Just fking REMOVE BASELINE SEALS because there is no point having so many buttons that is not worth to use 95% of the time.

3) HotR should not require a target but generate Holy Power only when a target is hit.

4) Ret needs a real Retribution exclusive Raid Wide CD like a Retribution Aura that reflects damage, or something that scales up to 20 people. Hands are not exclusive, not optimal and balanced for 3 to 5 people, not 20.

5) Exo needs to deal more damage at least.


Every button needs to do something because it just takes up space and time with no decision/thinking involved = bad design.

To make a button interesting it have to change the direction of the game up to some point. It has to involve decisions that can improve our performance. Like, if there is more enemies, can be interesting to use Area damage buttons. If the enemy is running away, you should consider to use a "slow him down" button. If you're getting hurt, you should use the "let's reduce damage taken" button. If your friend is getting hurt you should use the "let's reduce the damage taken from my friend" button.

There is no point in having a "just press this button to take up some of your time".

- - - Updated - - -

Except Inquisition was just an awful idea to begin with. Exorcism and Judgment do actually do things: Exorcism reduces the damage you take (with glyph), and Judgment talented can make you run faster, make other people run slower, or make your Flash of Light stronger/more instant. They are abilities that can optionally be more interesting. Inquisition was just maintenance for the sake of maintenance, much the same as Seraphim, but Seraphim actually does something and has a cooldown (speeds up the rate you use abilities, you take less damage and deal more damage, etc). Maintenance buffs can be interesting, but Inquisition certainly wasn't. Much like EmpSeals: another maintenance buff in the long line of really bad ideas with good intent.

Seraph is a bad design because on top of the fact that it feels bad to pool 5HoPo for a 15s buff, its ALWAYS good to have it up. The same as Inquisition.

EmpSeals are a good design because even if you have to always have 2 of them up at least, it's about the DECISION of what buff you'll need for the next 20s. We have to think "I'm getting trained, let's Insight for the healing and Justice for kiting" or "I'm being kited, let's Justice for the chace and then go back to the basics" or whatever - but there is thinking and rewarding involved.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

The same exact thing can be said for Seraphim... you have to decide if you want to use it now or in 15 seconds when adds or W/E is happening. People who think Seraphim is a "must use when off cd" are badly mistaken. For PvE the only 2 buffs from EmpS you'll use is the attackspeed and AP one, one of which you'll get passively since you'll be in either seal regardless. Yes there's some uses for the movement buff on specific encounters but that's very rare so far

From a pvp perspective I totally see the benefits and "smart" gameplay with EmpS (and Seraphim)

[Deleted]

The same exact thing can be said for Seraphim... you have to decide if you want to use it now or in 15 seconds when adds or W/E is happening. People who think Seraphim is a "must use when off cd" are badly mistaken.

Can you prove that given that Solsacra's sims say otherwise?

[ipoststuff]

Problem is our seal system is broken with very little gameplay. Emps is built on that broken system. They should just remove seals, make Emps give you 2-3 seals with actual meaning.

[Ramiell]

Except, if you know that you will have 15 seconds of uptime on a target and don't use Seraphim on CD you are losing out on DPS. You will want to hold it for planned burst phases and a few odd situations here and there yes. The norm however will be to use it when you have it. I wouldn't really call that a big decision. It's more like common sense.

PvP wise you want good pressure on the enemy at all times. After you drop your Wings, HA, Seraphim combo with your teams burst you will be looking to cycle solo Seraphim use on cooldown where uptime allows. If you aren't squeezing as many Seraphim uses out inbetween wings/HA/Trinket you will be doing it wrong.

[ipoststuff]

Seraphim is still too bad for pvp. You don't get 5hopo that fast while being kited, CCd or casting hands/heals. And to use that 5 hopo on a buff seems very bad to me.

[Ianus]

when you use EmP seals they should have remove classic seals and replace judgment with different seals like in old days when there were diff judgments.. i.e. judgment of bold and shit

[garonne]

Can you prove that given that Solsacra's sims say otherwise?

this is a silly question man, the current sims provide a single target, patchwork fight where you train the target for however long so delaying anything isn't recommended; so no, the sims wont prove nor can it prove anything otherwise (atm).

But, from common raiding knowledge:

boss is about to go in burst phase - align seraphim to get the biggest benefit
adds are coming in 15 secs and need to die, seraphim is ready- lets wait bc you'll gain a bigger benefit and buff to your aoe to deal with them quickly.
and other things that may come up in a raiding environment. from a pvp perspective, seraphim does provide damage reduction and increased healing done.

sn: while testing arms warriors last night, it hit me that seraphim plays similar to colossus smash (seraphim is way better tho).