[Retribution] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Random thought but I think the level 90 talents need a revamp IMO. For Paladins and a few other classes. They just seem weak and with the stat squish seems very weak. Yeah tuning via beta but I always felt the level 90 talents were weak and mediocre.

[Tangra]

Random thought but I think the level 90 talents need a revamp IMO. For Paladins and a few other classes. They just seem weak and with the stat squish seems very weak. Yeah tuning via beta but I always felt the level 90 talents were weak and mediocre.

They are, Light's Hammer needs to be baseline unless Consecration makes a comeback, Execution Sentence feels mandatory, and Holy Prism should really be a talent that replaces Exorcism for Ret.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

They are, Light's Hammer needs to be baseline unless Consecration makes a comeback, Execution Sentence feels mandatory, and Holy Prism should really be a talent that replaces Exorcism for Ret.

ES feels weak in some ways. Tbh I was expecting osmething like Final Verdict but for MoP but disappointment. Tbh I wouldn't mind if it was a big cooldown to turn into Uther to do extra damage or something but I think grand in talents so forgive me for that. If Holy Prism does replace exorcism it should do a shit ton more damage.

[Tangra]

ES feels weak in some ways. Tbh I was expecting osmething like Final Verdict but for MoP but disappointment. Tbh I wouldn't mind if it was a big cooldown to turn into Uther to do extra damage or something but I think grand in talents so forgive me for that. If Holy Prism does replace exorcism it should do a shit ton more damage.

If it replace exo it would generate 1 hp, have a 15 cd and have a chance to be reset by auto-attacks. Yes, talents were initially supposed to be quite grand, numerous blue posts during MoP development even stated that talents should feel overpowered and extremely impressive. I really wish they would get back to that design goal.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

If it replace exo it would generate 1 hp, have a 15 cd and have a chance to be reset by auto-attacks. Yes, talents were initially supposed to be quite grand, numerous blue posts during MoP development even stated that talents should feel overpowered and extremely impressive. I really wish they would get back to that design goal.

Some of them are impresssive. Some of them are "Lol wut?" It's not totally a super big deal but I think they should think about that as eras go by. Making the gameplay better. Still the new Holy Light Paladin visuals are cool I can't lie. Also if Hands are going to be our utility for a long while. They should update the visuals IMO.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

So does seal twisting really add depth to the class or is it something you can make a macro for, watch a timer, and call it a day?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't believe it adds depth but that is regardless of being macroable. I don't necessarily define something as depth as (Has to be not macroable). I don't use macros in combat.

[Tangra]

I still hope they realize that the judgement component is too clunky, also what does judging have to do with seals or their twisting?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I still hope they realize that the judgement component is too clunky, also what does judging have to do with seals or their twisting?

I believe it's how they're mechanically connected as they are now on live. Yeah other abilities work with Truth stacks but you understand what I mean. That's probably why they are stuck on that. If they got rid of that they might need to do additional things, especially for Ret. I don't know maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they're trying to offer new gameplay but not so drastic as recently they mentioned not to change so drasticly to push players away(Ala Warlock revamp).


I don't necessarily agree but I understand why.

[Maegor]

Read the judgement tooltip. That's why.

[ruiizu]

Much as I don't like EmpSeals, I would love if Judgment did something by default based on the current active Seal. It's just kinda dumb that Truth is the only Seal that interacts with Judgment, and only interacts to apply its DoT. I think they could do better and I don't think EmpSeals is the only answer (talking mainly offensive additions to Judgment).

[Vintersol]

EmpS will stay in the game. Blizzard thinks this is super awezomfg and if blizzard says it's fine, it IS fine.....

/endofsarcasm

[Relimash]

I want EmpSeals to be good, I really do. Like FV is super strong atm, and super funny. I just hope that after number tuning - and everything is said and done - EmpSeals will actually be worth it. FV is looking really strong, the other 2 talents just have so much ground to cover. And every time a tweet goes out about the talents it makes it look like things aren't getting much better, it's not a small change they need to do - it's a pretty significant one. For real, and they need to figure out what direction they are going in fast.

[Deleted]

EmpS will stay in the game. Blizzard thinks this is super awezomfg and if blizzard says it's fine, it IS fine.....

All three of those talents are set in stone I feel. We all know that they aren't going to go back to the drawing board on anything for this expansion as they are already up against the clock for getting it out. We just have to hope that there will be time to sort our numbers out, but there will be no significant change to mechanics.

I notice that there are changes to half of the classes this build but we are not one of them, even with a broken talent.

[Monoroth]

All three of those talents are set in stone I feel. We all know that they aren't going to go back to the drawing board on anything for this expansion as they are already up against the clock for getting it out. We just have to hope that there will be time to sort our numbers out, but there will be no significant change to mechanics.

I notice that there are changes to half of the classes this build but we are not one of them, even with a broken talent.

This is the most likely scenario with talents. They'll just tweak them tomake them balanced when compared to each other. Later in expansion they'll prob push us into diff LvL 100 talents with Tier set bonuses like we can see with T17.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

If we get some additional changes to Seraphim (hopo cost reduced mainly) and then some insane secondary stat trinket shows up it can potentially be good, that said if we want burst atm it's far less clunky to just go HA + FV.

[nyc81991]

Empowered Seals actually feels pretty good as Prot. Like I've said, Having 3 Seals (2 being mandatory to swap) feels completely fine. However, 4 different Seals, even if "optional" (which isn't so optional in PvP) doesn't feel good with Seals being on the Gcd and Judgments cd being roughly 5 seconds.

If Empowered Seals gave us Haste instead of Attack Speed and we had 3 strong Seals that are worth using, than Empowered Seals would be a great talent numbers tuning aside.

Seraphim on the other hand needs something extra added to it so it's not completely dependent on gear levels. In other words Seraphim needs a proc or a damage effect tied into it.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Like Celestalon has said, if there's "too many good things" that's a good spot. Means you have to chose what you need from what you want, hard choices = meaningful gameplay.

[Cronosmash]

Empowered Seals actually feels pretty good as Prot. Like I've said, Having 3 Seals (2 being mandatory to swap) feels completely fine. However, 4 different Seals, even if "optional" (which isn't so optional in PvP) doesn't feel good with Seals being on the Gcd and Judgments cd being roughly 5 seconds.

If Empowered Seals gave us Haste instead of Attack Speed and we had 3 strong Seals that are worth using, than Empowered Seals would be a great talent numbers tuning aside.

Seraphim on the other hand needs something extra added to it so it's not completely dependent on gear levels. In other words Seraphim needs a proc or a damage effect tied into it.

Look, I know attack speed is nice and all, but for now I intent to use EmpSeals for PVP and just pretty much never use Righteousness. Why?

Our uptime isn't all that big and it's not worth the swap for that. Same as for AoE in most of the cases: just not worth the swap and swap back. I'll just skip it and have use 3 as you say it's fine and I agree.

Seal for damage, for healing and for movement. Swap when needed.

Attack power from Truth is at least close to enough to compete with FV (say 5% less damage if we don't swap to Righteousness) and it gives us the flexibility for survivability and movement - not to mention that FV don't help at healing too and I see that as a huge part of Ret utility.

What you think?

[nyc81991]

Like Celestalon has said, if there's "too many good things" that's a good spot. Means you have to chose what you need from what you want, hard choices = meaningful gameplay.

Not when it's clunky and you are talking about PvP where the "optional" buffs from Empowered Seals aren't so "optional".

In PvP you need the run speed bonus from Seal of Justice because Ret mobility sucks and you are giving up the 10 yard range on Final Verdict. The Seal of Insight buff is needed for survivability if you are going to take the talent.

That leaves you in a situation where you want to keep up 4 different Seal buffs while they are all on the gcd and Judgment has a roughly 5 second cd making it nearly impossible to keep them up, clunky, unnecessary and a further damage loss.

No other Paladin spec has 4 Seals. And 2 out of our 4 Seals are close to useless in 99% of situations.

Like has been said many times before, it is easy to look at things on paper and numbers and say it's fine. In practice that couldn't be further from the truth.

PvE isn't effected much because you can essentially ignore the other 2 Seals the majority of the time and it won't matter much because you have a tank being the focused person getting damaged. Mobility is also relatively useless for the majority of PvE because you are fighting a computer that has set mechanics that you memorize to beat. PvP is nothing like that.

I understand that you want "depth" and decision making to apart of Ret in some form, but 4 different Seals to manage in PvP isn't "depth", it is clunky and a hindrance.

Either Seal of Inight or Seal of Justice need to be removed from Ret. If Seal of Justice was removed they could just make Judgment apply a 50% snare baseline, but that would remove the idea of Ret having a "PvP Seal". Or they can remove Seal of Insight from Ret and roll defense into Seal of Justice so it can actually function as a real PvP / Survivability Seal. Either way one of those need to happen.

- - - Updated - - -

Look, I know attack speed is nice and all, but for now I intent to use EmpSeals for PVP and just pretty much never use Righteousness. Why?

Our uptime isn't all that big and it's not worth the swap for that. Same as for AoE in most of the cases: just not worth the swap and swap back. I'll just skip it and have use 3 as you say it's fine and I agree.

Seal for damage, for healing and for movement. Swap when needed.

Attack power from Truth is at least close to enough to compete with FV (say 5% less damage if we don't swap to Righteousness) and it gives us the flexibility for survivability and movement - not to mention that FV don't help at healing too and I see that as a huge part of Ret utility.

What you think?

Final Verdict doesn't provide direct survivability, you are right. However, it provides indirect survivability through being able to put out more pressure to force your opponent to play more defensively. The 10 yard range also allows us to kite much more effectively, which increases our survivability. And at the moment on Beta, Ret's baseline survivability is much better than it is on live (Aside from Warriors broken Sudden Death procs which will be fixed).

As for Seal of Righteousness giving Attack Speed. There is no reason why it shouldn't give haste. It isn't even a matter making it Haste for more dps, It comes down to making things less clunky and more interesting, which Haste does naturally. Attack Speed is boring and not interesting at all.