[Retribution] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[Deleted]

Because IMO the level 100 talents add just what you're talking about.

Agree with this, I find the level 100 priority list quite complicated and difficult to play in a progress scenario, it is certainly something I will be practising a lot.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

surely our rotation is not over complicated. It never was. Never will be one.
But I for one am against complications for the sake of complications.
If they could only make our rotation more complex WHILE making it more potential, able to bring us into higher tiers of dps ...

"complexity" shouldn't come for the sake of making things complicated- however it should come for the sake of separating the bad - good - amazing players which there's currently very, very little of. The only thing that really separate Rets now days is how well you can use your tools without losing much dps, there should be dps decisions that make a bigger impact- Seraphim and Empowered Seals (regardless of the flaws those 2 talents have) bring a great deal of those "play properly and get rewarded" mechanics.

And it's not just about separating the bad from the good (etc), it's about giving players a challenge- if something isn't challenging it's not fun (for me at least). I don't raid heroic (mythic) for the gear or the "e-peen", I raid it because progress is (can) be demanding and a proper challenge- reward is seeing your raid perform better and better until you kill it.

TL;DR
Simple = Boring
Hard = Exciting

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Agree with this, I find the level 100 priority list quite complicated and difficult to play in a progress scenario, it is certainly something I will be practising a lot.

With the exception of Final Verdict.

[ujx]

Ret at 90 definitely isn't hard but it's not in it's own category of easiest in the game. Almost all rotations now are pretty simple. With the removal of dot snapshotting, almost all classes are "use whatever lights up that's highest on priority list".

Complexity isn't always a good thing. Blizzard has a proven track record with having the highest dps spec also having the easiest rotation (arcane mage in firelands, fury warrior in ICC, fire mage in DS, warlock in TBC, fury/arms right now and WoD, hunter in sunwell, etc...) They have almost never rewarded players that have a high skillcap by giving them high dps in return. Only exception I can think of was WotLK feral druid, maybe min/max demo lock in Throne of Thunder.

There's a fine line between a reasonable rotation and something that's "complex" because it's cluttered with below-average abilities. As much fun as it is going on forums and talking up your class about how hard your rotation is, it doesn't make the game more fun. There's a delicate balance and I think with all the procs we have in t17, it's pushing that limit. If we were to throw seal-twisting on top of it, that would be too far IMO. So be careful what you wish for.

[nukias]

"complexity" shouldn't come for the sake of making things complicated- however it should come for the sake of separating the bad - good - amazing players which there's currently very, very little of.

I agree, I like having things to do to separate skill levels, but if you don't implement it properly you get shitty maintenance buffs like Inquisition. It's Blizzard's way of adding a "higher skill cap."

[Canitnerd]

Is anyone else worried that the latest beta patch didnt include any of the 20% buffs? It would be real shitty if those buffs were just level 90 bandaids and we were shit at 100.

[Doodledoo]

Is anyone else worried that the latest beta patch didnt include any of the 20% buffs? It would be real shitty if those buffs were just level 90 bandaids and we were shit at 100.

We'll see for sure soon enough.

[Bonkura]

Personally I can list around 10 specs that I find easier than Ret. Mainly due to the fact that we don't have a specific filler we're spamming. There's also things like Double Jeopardy and keeping Censure up on multiple targets on live that add a lot of complexity on its own.

In WoD we won't only get the level 100 talents on top of all this but also the T17 set bonuses. We will have EmpDS, 2p and 4p which will all force us out of our normal rotation. They might seem easy to handle on paper, but the priority list gets really long, so there will be a lot of things to keep track off at the same time.

Honestly I think T17 will show who's actually really good at Ret for the first time since I started playing this spec. I just hope all this effort will be rewarded and not just mandatory to keep our raid spots. :<

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

1. Censure up on multiple targets on live that add a lot of complexity on its own.
2. We will have EmpDS, 2p and 4p which will all force us out of our normal rotation. They might seem easy to handle on paper, but the priority list gets really long, so there will be a lot of things to keep track off at the same time.
3. Honestly I think T17 will show who's actually really good at Ret for the first time since I started playing this spec. I just hope all this effort will be rewarded and not just mandatory to keep our raid spots. :<

1. Yes we can spread Censure on cleave fights but the amount of damage Censure deals in WoD you will rarely see any difference.
2. Weak Auras filter out absolutely everything for you if you got it set up properly, it's an absolute joke to play with.
3.T17 will bring a decent number of things to watch and control- however it's dwarfed by the amount of damage we gain (or lose) depending on RNG and when we get said RNG.

You can't deny that RNG has a bigger impact on Ret throughput atm (esp aoe) than any level of "skill" has, that's my main complaint about Ret- EmpDS just makes the problem bigger in that our AoE is so much rng. Yes on "average" it's going to go okay but guess who doesn't give 2 shits about "average"? Raid bosses, raid bosses won't fall over because you do 50k dps on average, if you do 40k one pull you won't kill it, if you do 60k one pull you'll potentially kill it faster. Having some sort of stable numbers is so important to progress raiding, imagine if your tank(s) had a chance to die every 10 attacks and they couldn't control it? That's in effect how bad some effects can be if they're significant enough.

I would rather do 35k-45k dps stable instead of 25k-55k, blizzard REALLY should shift some of our aoe away from the holy power and rng clusterfest they got going on- it's terrible design...

[Morally Grey Storm]

1. Yes we can spread Censure on cleave fights but the amount of damage Censure deals in WoD you will rarely see any difference.
2. Weak Auras filter out absolutely everything for you if you got it set up properly, it's an absolute joke to play with.
3.T17 will bring a decent number of things to watch and control- however it's dwarfed by the amount of damage we gain (or lose) depending on RNG and when we get said RNG.

You can't deny that RNG has a bigger impact on Ret throughput atm (esp aoe) than any level of "skill" has, that's my main complaint about Ret- EmpDS just makes the problem bigger in that our AoE is so much rng. Yes on "average" it's going to go okay but guess who doesn't give 2 shits about "average"? Raid bosses, raid bosses won't fall over because you do 50k dps on average, if you do 40k one pull you won't kill it, if you do 60k one pull you'll potentially kill it faster. Having some sort of stable numbers is so important to progress raiding, imagine if your tank(s) had a chance to die every 10 attacks and they couldn't control it? That's in effect how bad some effects can be if they're significant enough.

I would rather do 35k-45k dps stable instead of 25k-55k, blizzard REALLY should shift some of our aoe away from the holy power and rng clusterfest they got going on- it's terrible design...

I'm glad we agree at least about our RNG and aoe.
Consistency is what we desperately need.
We've been RNG dependent and burst oriented down too long in the midnight sea.

[trystero]

I'd like this list of 10 easier dps specs than Ret. Most people play this spec nearly perfectly with an addon that tells them literally what buttons to press when.

[decyphier]

edit yea nvm who cares doesn't contribute at all

[Doodledoo]

what the hell does this have to do with what the thread is about? Can we get back on track instead of having bullshit convo's about what the easiest class is. Honestly surprised Krekko hasnt stopped by yet b/c of this nonsense. If you hadn't noticed by now, every class is different for every person. Making generalized statements like "ret is the easiest/hardest class" is kind of retarded.

[Bonkura]

what the hell does this have to do with what the thread is about? Can we get back on track instead of having bullshit convo's about what the easiest class is. Honestly surprised Krekko hasnt stopped by yet b/c of this nonsense. If you hadn't noticed by now, every class is different for every person. Making generalized statements like "ret is the easiest/hardest class" is kind of retarded.

That's why I didn't post the list.

[Deleted]

You can't deny that RNG has a bigger impact on Ret throughput atm (esp aoe) than any level of "skill" has

Any chance we could get some actual data on this supposed ridiculous variance in DPS? I suppose SimC would be a good tool for this(?).

[Tangra]

Any chance we could get some actual data on this supposed ridiculous variance in DPS? I suppose SimC would be a good tool for this(?).

We've been talking about this for weeks, there should be data on it all over the last few dozen pages. EmpDS/DP procs basically make or break your AoE dps.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I'd like this list of 10 easier dps specs than Ret. Most people play this spec nearly perfectly with an addon that tells them literally what buttons to press when.

CLC (or any other "rotation" addon) is merely a suggestion and will NOT always give you the information that suits your situation, I've played with and without and I feel very little difference. What I use CLC for is keeping 1 gcd ahead of my rotation, for instance if I see a opening in my next GCD my eyes wander over to raid frames to see if anyone needs a FoL. Like I mentioned in my "rant" the "skill" of being a good ret has been about knowing how to use our utility without losing much (if any) damage and there's almost no "skill" requirements in our damage rotation that can make significant throughput changes- you can look at a ton of other specs that have these very strict "do this and you gain X dps increase" mechanics, even if it's as simple as maintaining a buff or debuff in a proper manner.

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Any chance we could get some actual data on this supposed ridiculous variance in DPS? I suppose SimC would be a good tool for this(?).

I PMed Sol if he could update his old simulation for T17, iirc the difference on 5 targets was as high as 25% either side of the average- meaning you can see aoe go from 30k to 50k (just imaginary numbers) and the effect increases with number of targets- more importantly however is that encounters aren't simulations, if you don't get any procs when adds spawn but another ret does the difference is going be insane, the next pull you can get the proc and the other doesn't. It's just not a good design, not even close... RNG shouldn't decide your throughput as much as it currently does!

[Deleted]

We've been talking about this for weeks, there should be data on it all over the last few dozen pages.

Lots of talk, couldn't find any data.

iirc the difference on 5 targets was as high as 25%

With which talent setup was this? FV/DP I presume?

[Sforza]

Sorry for the noob question, those +20% buffs are just hotfixes for live?

[Haaz]

Sorry for the noob question, those +20% buffs are just hotfixes for live?

For now, they are meant to stay in WoD, if thats what u mean? Could ofc get nerfed tho, but latest sims shows it quite balanced, some classes a bit behind just..

[Tangra]

Sorry for the noob question, those +20% buffs are just hotfixes for live?

I don't think there is an official answer, but the numbers look fine at lvl 100; i guess we'll know for sure within the next few beta builds.