If you could change one historical event, what would it be?

[TheGravemind]

The Battle of Tours is probably one of the most important victories for human civilization as a whole in the history of mankind.

As for historical events... hmm. Probably spill coffee on The Communist Manifesto and get Marx and Engels so high or laid or whatever that they forget the whole idea.

The Battle of Tours was among the greatest losses for humanity in its entire history. Only a person devoid of all historical critical analytical ability would try to argue that inhibiting the spread of Andalusian scientific knowledge into Europe for 500 extra years was a "victory for humanity." rofl

[Deleted]

spreading of Christianity would have avoied murders and holy wars. (and would have preserved cultures/religions/traditions....)

[Deleted]

spreading of Christianity would have avoied murders and holy wars. (and would have preserved cultures/religions/traditions....)

Make that spreading of religion instead.

[TheGravemind]

Your point being that one group of people don't get to decide the description of the religion of others? No, that was my point.

No, but the heterodox sects don't get to claim to be a part of the orthodox majority either. So, when the orthodox sects interpret things like "the Muslims are like one body," then that's interpreted given their coherent understanding of how sects work rather than your post-modern view of what a Muslim is or isn't.

Which is relevant to giving you a greater understanding of Islam, how exactly? West or Far East, neither has a greater understanding of Islam than the other.

You called me a Westerner... I said I'm only half of a "Westerner."

[Stelio Kontos]

The Battle of Tours was among the greatest losses for humanity in its entire history.

I'm not going to say it outright, since it's against the ToU, but you have got to be living under a bridge and accosting billy-goats.

Europe, from Greece and Rome to the British Empire, achieved so much more, and advanced so much further, than any other set of civilizations. How could averting mass slaughter and the destruction of the early French kingdom by rampaging fanatical barbarians be considered a great loss for humanity?

[TheGravemind]

spreading of Christianity would have avoied murders and holy wars. (and would have preserved cultures/religions/traditions....)

Monastic monks played a critical role in preserving "culture/traditions," and more importantly, textual knowledge in Europe during the Dark Ages. Your ignorance is stunning.

[Kalis]

id say the burning of the Library of Alexandria

or anywhere there was a large oppression of scientific growth

the Library was a big one but by what one of my older friends talks to me about that over history, Tech found that had been lost and we have trouble replicating it, let alone wondering how they did it during their time

There is no technology from the ancient world that we can't replicate. We don't always know why, or exactly how, they built certain things, but there is nothing in the ancient world we couldn't do today.

[Deleted]

Monastic monks played a critical role in preserving "culture/traditions," and more importantly, textual knowledge in Europe during the Dark Ages. Your ignorance is stunning.

You don't have to be religious to preserve it.

[Deleted]

Vikings attacked monasteries because they were unguarded... free loot! Monasteries were a creation of Christianity (ancient temples in south europe (greace/rome) didnt have that much free loot, and often were guarded...

I mean seriously.. free loot!

[TheGravemind]

I'm not going to say it outright, since it's against the ToU, but you have got to be living under a bridge and accosting billy-goats.

Europe, from Greece and Rome to the British Empire, achieved so much more, and advanced so much further, than any other set of civilizations. How could averting mass slaughter and the destruction of the early French kingdom by rampaging fanatical barbarians be considered a great loss for humanity?

The Islamic caliphates were far more advanced than Europe during the Battle of Tours. Europe stayed in the Dark Ages until ~1450 nearly 700 years later. Why on earth would you say that the Battle of Tours was a victory, other than for your chest-beating ethnocentric nationalistic rubbish? Andalusia was the science engine of Europe, the only light in the darkness of the Dark Ages. If the Battle of Tours had been won, not only would the Spanish Inquisition have been avoided, but the rest of Europe would have benefited from Islamic scientific innovation. But nah, you'd rather have 700 years of Teutons and Visigoths killing each other rofl.

[Deleted]

The Islamic caliphates were far more advanced than Europe during the Battle of Tours. Europe stayed in the Dark Ages until ~1450 nearly 700 years later. Why on earth would you say that the Battle of Tours was a victory, other than your ethnocentric nationalistic garbage? Andalusia was the science engine of Europe, the only light in the darkness of the Dark Ages. If the Battle of Tours had been won, not only would the Spanish Inquisition have been avoided, but the rest of Europe would have benefited from Islamic scientific innovation. But nah, you'd rather have 700 years of Teutons and Visigoths killing each other rofl.

I guess I've seen it all, finding it good that they lost is nationalistic. Are you by any chance a muslim imperialist or something?

[Stelio Kontos]

Vikings attacked monasteries because they were unguarded... free loot! Monasteries were a creation of Christianity (ancient temples in south europe (greace/rome) didnt have that much free loot, and often were guarded...

I mean seriously.. free loot!

Constantinople at one period had so much "loot" Norsemen and Saxons traveled there to serve as the Byzantine Emperor's elite guard units, the Varangian Guard. Some of them wrote that they believed Constantinople was the center of the universe because of how much bigger and more wealthy it was than anything they had seen before.

The defenselessness of the northern monasteries was probably a factor for their pillaging, but the Mediterranean, especially in the east, was much more wealthy than most of western/northern Europe at the time.

[TheGravemind]

I guess I've seen it all, finding it good that they lost is nationalistic. Are you by any chance a muslim imperialist or something?

can you read my signature

[Deleted]

I guess I've seen it all, finding it good that they lost is nationalistic. Are you by any chance a muslim imperialist or something?

He's the body of all Muslims. Don't question it please.

[Deleted]

can you read my signature

Yes, I read "crazy".

[Kalis]

No, but the heterodox sects don't get to claim to be a part of the orthodox majority either. So, when the orthodox sects interpret things like "the Muslims are like one body," then that's interpreted given their coherent understanding of how sects work rather than your post-modern view of what a Muslim is or isn't.

Even the two major groups don't act as one body, nor do the factions within those groups, so your entire argument is utter nonsense. Whoever made that claim that they are one body was a moron. Try to quote somebody less retarded in the future.

You called me a Westerner... I said I'm only half of a "Westerner."

Based on your inference that Westerners didn't know about Islam, it's irrelevant as you quite clearly don't know much about it either.

So you are a Westerner as you are from the US and having a Korean parent doesn't give you any greater insight into Islam than anybody else. If you want to be a pedant, then you're a Westerner with some Far Eastern ethnicity...still doesn't help your overall argument, as the world isn't split into Westerners and Muslims.

[Stelio Kontos]

The Islamic caliphates were far more advanced than Europe during the Battle of Tours. Europe stayed in the Dark Ages until ~1450 nearly 700 years later. Why on earth would you say that the Battle of Tours was a victory, other than for your chest-beating ethnocentric nationalistic rubbish? Andalusia was the science engine of Europe, the only light in the darkness of the Dark Ages. If the Battle of Tours had been won, not only would the Spanish Inquisition have been avoided, but the rest of Europe would have benefited from Islamic scientific innovation. But nah, you'd rather have 700 years of Teutons and Visigoths killing each other rofl.

The fact it's 2014 and you're still operating under the assumption there was a "Dark Age" shows how ignorant you are. Governmental infrastructure collapsed after Rome fell, but there was no loss of civilization in the Byzantine Empire, and they were more advanced than any caliphate for much of their history. There had never been extensive civil infrastructure or wide-scale education in Europe, there was simply no civilization to collapse aside from former Roman cities along the coast of southern France and Spain. Instead there was steady growth and development of Germanic institutions in the centuries following Roman political collapse.

Not a dark age at all, merely a transition.

[Stormdash]

The Battle of Tours was among the greatest losses for humanity in its entire history. Only a person devoid of all historical critical analytical ability would try to argue that inhibiting the spread of Andalusian scientific knowledge into Europe for 500 extra years was a "victory for humanity." rofl

I think it prevented the conquest of Europe by a for-want-of-better-term civilization that had pretty much hit its anthropological peak and has stayed there. You really can't steal the credit of scientific riches of pre-Muslim societies of Northern Africa and the Middle East as though Muslim society had anything to do with creating them or any interest in them at all other than happening to exist where those things had happened. If the good guys don't win at Poitiers, there is no Magna Carta, there is no Renaissance, as far as I have any reason to know it may have short-circuited the industrial age, etc.

[TheGravemind]

Even the two major groups don't act as one body, nor do the factions within those groups, so your entire argument is utter nonsense. Whoever made that claim that they are one body was a moron. Try to quote somebody less retarded in the future.



Based on your inference that Westerners didn't know about Islam, it's irrelevant as you quite clearly don't know much about it either.

So you are a Westerner as you are from the US and having a Korean parent doesn't give you any greater insight into Islam than anybody else. If you want to be a pedant, then you're a Westerner with some Far Eastern ethnicity...still doesn't help your overall argument, as the world isn't split into Westerners and Muslims.

Maybe I've been awake for too long, but I have no idea what you're rambling on about, or even why.

- - - Updated - - -

and they were more advanced than any caliphate for much of their history.

No, they weren't. The scientific method was not even pioneered prior to ibn al-Haytham, so, why would uncultured Byzantines be scientifically ahead of the caliphates? Take your Occidental goggles off.

Not a dark age at all, merely a transition.

Your historical revisionism does not sit well with the analyses of actual historians: (paywall, not sure if you have access): http://hwj.oxfordjournals.org/content/63/1/191.full

[Kalis]

Maybe I've been awake for too long, but I have no idea what you're rambling on about, or even why.

You made the ridiculous claim that Muslims are one body, when even a retarded child can see they aren't. When it was pointed out that they aren't in fact one body, you tried to shift the quote onto some moron and then argue that they are, even though they blatantly aren't.#

It's not my fault that you can't even recall the nonsense you spout.