Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc. Ruling

[Fugus]

Hobby Lobby really has no leg to stand on here. Yes, they are entitled to their religious views but they are not or at the very least should not be allowed to have them dodge their legal responsibilities.

If they fuck up and actually let them get away with this, I have a feeling in the not too distant future we will have businesses owners claim their religion shuns modern medicine in favor of pray healing as an excuse to avoid paying for health insurance entirely or to pay a smaller faction to a church in return for prayers for their injured workers.

Church should remain separate from State and Business for such decisions for a very good reason.

[Twotonsteak]

Setting the precedent that a company can just pick whatever religion allows them to provide the least coverage would be, IMO, one of the most idiotic rulings ever.

Sooo...little fun fact. Turns out Hobby Lobby has been, willingly, covering 13 out of 20 forms of birth control. Supposedly the other seven are either used for, or as part of, abortions.

Thirteen out of twenty.

Another little fact. Freedom of Religion is covered in the constitution. Not sure where "right to free abortions" is covered.

[Twotonsteak]

Hobby Lobby really has no leg to stand on here. Yes, they are entitled to their religious views but they are not or at the very least should not be allowed to have them dodge their legal responsibilities.

If they fuck up and actually let them get away with this, I have a feeling in the not too distant future we will have businesses owners claim their religion shuns modern medicine in favor of pray healing as an excuse to avoid paying for health insurance entirely or to pay a smaller faction to a church in return for prayers for their injured workers.

Church should remain separate from State and Business for such decisions for a very good reason.

Wait...wait.

So ruling that the penalty is a "tax" when it is clearly a penalty is OK. That's acceptable. But THIS would be a f* up?

Thanks for the LOL.

[Fugus]

Sooo...little fun fact. Turns out Hobby Lobby has been, willingly, covering 13 out of 20 forms of birth control. Supposedly the other seven are either used for, or as part of, abortions.

Thirteen out of twenty.

Another little fact. Freedom of Religion is covered in the constitution. Not sure where "right to free abortions" is covered.

They are more than free to practice their religion, but they are not free to impose their religious views onto their employees.

Their religious views are more than protected but that does not extend to the point where they can use it to avoid their legal responsibilities.

[Kasierith]

Sooo...little fun fact. Turns out Hobby Lobby has been, willingly, covering 13 out of 20 forms of birth control. Supposedly the other seven are either used for, or as part of, abortions.

Thirteen out of twenty.

Another little fact. Freedom of Religion is covered in the constitution. Not sure where "right to free abortions" is covered.

Freedom of Religion doesn't mean you don't have to pay for government-approved insurance plans that happen to cover birth control. If this were the case, than the argument would be against covering the health plan in its entirety because factors of it are immoral for them... in which case, they have the option of paying the tax.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait...wait.

So ruling that the penalty is a "tax" when it is clearly a penalty is OK. That's acceptable. But THIS would be a f* up?

Thanks for the LOL.

As has been covered numerous times, the reason why it went through the supreme court to begin with was because rational people realized that the health care system was completely out of control and something had to be done about it.

[Fugus]

Wait...wait.

So ruling that the penalty is a "tax" when it is clearly a penalty is OK. That's acceptable. But THIS would be a f* up?

Thanks for the LOL.

Way to dodge the statement rather than respond to it. You want to complain about the whole tax vs penalty thing, go for it in another thread, this thread isn't about that.

[IIamaKing]

And should Jehovah's Witnesses be able to refuse to "buy people" surgical procedures that require blood transfusions?

Yes. I also think companys should be allowed to simply NOT offer ANY coverage.

[Mormolyce]

Yeah, and i guarantee unless you're an octogenarian, we'll be witnessing this argument down the road in our lifetimes.

Yeah, I doubt it :P

Did you know that Christianity is still the world's fastest growing religion? Grows by about 25 million adherents per year, compared to 23 million for Islam. Now Islam has a higher RATE of growth, but that's because it's so much smaller than Christianity to begin with (70% smaller or thereabouts). Though in those terms it's still behind Zoroastrianism (still going strong!) and the Baha'i faith.

In terms of converts, Christianity massively outweighs Islam, 2.5 million converts per year compared to less than 900k. Islam is only growing so fast because it's popular in poorer countries with higher birth rates.

By 2050 this is predicted to roughly balance out such that both religions will grow at essentially the same rate. So unlikely the ratio worldwide will change much. Let alone in the US.

http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html

[Kasierith]

Yes. I also think companys should be allowed to simply NOT offer ANY coverage.

They have that option.

[ngc2440]

Common sense.

Rather have healthcare professionals than "common sense".

[Wells]

Common sense.

Yes this sounds like a sound basis for medical decisions.

[apepi]

Since Republicans like to use the slippery slope argument so often, I find it funny that Democrats are using it in this case. Let's go the other direction, let's say that the court does uphold the mandate. The whole reason contraception is in the law in the first place is because the Administration consulted outside health professionals and scientists who held the belief that contraception was essential to womens' health. Let's say, one day, when we're iterating the law down the line, some more professionals say that breast implants and nose jobs are essential to health because.... fuck it, psychology. Are we just going to keep piling on whatever the government decides is now a part of healthcare, or are we going to properly use our courts to draw a line somewhere?

I am not a democrat?

Corporations are not people, on the other hand employes are, so they get freedom of religion to not be impeded by their employer. While I may not agree with the former two, psychology, should be considered essential.

And the government gets to set rules and regulations, whether you like it or not, I don't think having contraception essential is 'crossing the lines'.

[Kasierith]

Yes this sounds like a sound basis for medical decisions.

But common sense makes sense with medicine, actually.... like, you wouldn't poison someone to treat disease, would you?

[xuros]

Your right to religious freedom should not extend to dictating what others do. Sorry.

They shouldn't be forced to pay for a plan that cover birth control if it violates their beliefs. You don't like it, don't work for them. Let them find someone else who will hire them and pay for a plan to cover their BC. They can't do anything that goes against "Mohamed's" Islamic beliefs but its ok to say fuck you to HB's Christian beliefs?

[Wells]

But common sense makes sense with medicine, actually.... like, you wouldn't poison someone to treat disease, would you?

Chemo makes you sick, it couldn't possibly be medicine.

[ngc2440]

But common sense makes sense with medicine, actually.... like, you wouldn't poison someone to treat disease, would you?

Depending on the situation yes.

[Kasierith]

They shouldn't be forced to pay for a plan that cover birth control if it violates their beliefs. You don't like it, don't work for them. Let them find someone else who will hire them and pay for a plan to cover their BC.

The ACA has been passed. They should and are being forced to pay for plans, or pay a hefty tax for it. That these plans happen to have birth control is irrelevant to that.

If a company doesn't like it, they can always just leave the country

[Wells]

Common sense tells me that people can buy their own contraception and still reap the same medical benefits, as they have for quite a long time.

Which is entirely irrelevant. The law says it has to be covered. Hobby Lobby is claiming the RFRA gives them an out. Despite your rambling "arguments" that's all that matters.

[Captain N]

Yeah, but I don't see Christianity setting up anything like a Caliphate and promising to murder all non-believers. They got over that.

Exactly now they refuse basic services to Homosexuals...they infringe on the rights of women....they promote hypocrisy because a 2000 year old book tells them to do so.

[IIamaKing]

They have that option.

Yeh I am not sure why I was thinking they didn't. So I guess if Hobby Lobby Loses and they really want to stick to their guns they should just dump all their current coverage and put all their employes into the exchanges,