Sniper Training - A Flawed Concept and How to Improve It

[Mcsauce]

I fully agree there will be issues with it in its current state. I also feel like something that would help it would be to give MM a new short CC like a tigers fury for feral which would make the hunter enter Sniper Training mode instantly and allow movement for 6 seconds on a Thirty Second or 45 second Cool Down. Would help for fights where movement is a must and in pvp while not making it op.

[Deleted]

I fully agree there will be issues with it in its current state. I also feel like something that would help it would be to give MM a new short CC like a tigers fury for feral which would make the hunter enter Sniper Training mode instantly and allow movement for 6 seconds on a Thirty Second or 45 second Cool Down. Would help for fights where movement is a must and in pvp while not making it op.

Imho the mastery is perfect for PvE as it is now, it doesn't need further "buffs" or modifiers to increase it's uptime. Also I can't think of any actual fight where the movement is enough to not maintain a good uptime on the buff. However alternative triggers (hit on melee, on stun, etc) could help it on PvP.

[Bullettime]

"Dear Blizzard, I really want a unique and thematically sound spec with neat mechanics. But in addition, I also want my spec to be identical to ___ spec. Failure to do so means your devs are terrible. Successfully doing so means you're over homogenizing the game." - The Forums.

Seriously. Sniper Training is largely fine. Skilled players will find opportunities to reactivate the buff in 3s and RBGs (sorry guys but 2s aren't supported beyond ability to queue) while it will be a fun test of skill in PvE among MM players. Smart movement will turn immediately in higher damage.

Will this suck in 2s? Sure. Will this suck in duels? Sure. But neither of these are supported or balanced around. And if Sniper Training proves to be a hindrance for top record challenge modes, do what every other class does and change to the super optimal spec. Considering you can get Gold in challenge modes outright carrying a deadweight player, I really doubt losing a few % damage from Sniper Training falling off when moving from pack to pack is going to stop you from getting a Gold clear.

[Jaydenkor]

Read page 1, Love the idea of the *half always on, and doubled (full value) when not moving.*
Obviously its not a great mastery for pvp... I hope that this will be a case where something doesn't get removed/nerfed [in pve] to shit because of pvp however.. because US pve'rs hate you pvp'ers for it :P

[Deleted]

It s a great opener if u know how to play on PvP!! U will have to use camouflaze a little more often and it will provides u a lot if u do so, u can even glyph for it!! U can put freezing trap and while casting AS u will get the buff for 6 secs!! And trust me u don t need that all the time, u need it to boost your dps and kill someone fast or get him low fast! This all thread is foolish cause u want this passive and to have other mastery that will boost your dps more so u basickly need hunters more OP than they are atm!!

[Elunedra]

i love the sniper training mastery, we hunters are gonig to have like 10yr extra range over anyone else, maybe even more in end game

this works awsome in BG's where you can just start out of range from any other casters and just shoot down a hill,
works awsome on riad bosses where you our range the boss its abilities

in arena it can still work, thier dpers will go after your healer anyway so while they are killing your healer you stand at a long range shotting them down

[hareu]

I think it's perfectly fine imo, if you have to move for like 5-10 seconds you'll lose a little dps, that's all there is to it and it fits the spec like you said... there's 2 other specs to play you know.

[DeicideUH]

this works awsome in BG's where you can just start out of range from any other casters and just shoot down a hill,
works awsome on riad bosses where you our range the boss its abilities

Let me put it this way. How many times can you stay at 40 yards away and shoot safely nowadays? Almost never: either the enemy goes straight to you, or he moves a few feet farther away and escapes your range. Staying at 45 or 50 yards away is essentially the same, with the bigger confusion that your max range keeps changing based on circunstances.

in arena it can still work, thier dpers will go after your healer anyway so while they are killing your healer you stand at a long range shotting them down

That would be wonderful... if there were no LoS blockers. Enemy ran behind a pillar? Sorry, your 50 yards range means nothing. Actually, until you run up to the target, he had time to heal AND you've lost all value on your mastery. Now try to stop for 3s while he keeps running around the pillar.

What will your healer do? Stay in open ground so you can shoot safely at his attackers? No, he will try to pillar hump to defend himself from 2-3 enemies attacking him at once, because you are not likely to be able to kill the attackers before they finish him.

I think it's perfectly fine imo, if you have to move for like 5-10 seconds you'll lose a little dps, that's all there is to it and it fits the spec like you said...

It's fine for raiding, sure.

Now go do some PvP. Got feared or Disoriented? A melee has reached you? Bye bye Mastery. It wouldn't be so bad if there was at least some defensive advantage while moving, but right now moving means losing all value in a stat, and that's bad.

there's 2 other specs to play you know.

All specs should be viable.

https://twitter.com/holinka/status/486152728536551424

Holinka: We wouldn't say "Spec A is the PvP spec." We do our best to support players playing any spec.

[Deleted]

so can we change warriors/rogues/dk and the other meles aswell: if you move for more then 3 seconds your auto attack is disabled untill you stand still for 3 seconds. Thats basicly what they are doing to MM. No focus dump other then a 2.5 sec cast, and mastery is not active if you move.

Love the idea... but its executed HORRIBLY. With this change they 100% removed the whole specc from ANY pvp. You wont be able to do anything against anyone that can move behind a pillar etc in the 2.5 sec it takes you to cast a aimshot.

[darkwarrior42]

I think it's perfectly fine imo, if you have to move for like 5-10 seconds you'll lose a little dps, that's all there is to it and it fits the spec like you said... there's 2 other specs to play you know.

That is the biggest problem though.... if the other two specs can match the output of MM while MM is making optimal use of Sniper Training, why would anyone play MM?

Given equal performance from all specs and talents, it seems obvious that SV will be the best spec to play in raids.
-Unlike MM, no sniper training restricting movement.
-Unlike BM, no requirement for a pet (assuming lone wolf performs well)

I have zero issue with specs being different, or having different requirements to be played well. They're giving MM a movement restriction. It could theoretically be argued that BM's movement "restriction" is the time it takes their pet to reach a new target (though blink strike and raid design make that a non-issue in many cases). What is survival's restriction?

I intend to play MM if it's at all possible next expansion, but I'm also not going to needlessly limit myself. I have zero doubt that I'll be able to handle Sniper Training... but if the other two specs are just as powerful and don't have that restriction, what's the point?

[Bullettime]

so can we change warriors/rogues/dk and the other meles aswell: if you move for more then 3 seconds your auto attack is disabled untill you stand still for 3 seconds. Thats basicly what they are doing to MM. No focus dump other then a 2.5 sec cast, and mastery is not active if you move.

Love the idea... but its executed HORRIBLY. With this change they 100% removed the whole specc from ANY pvp. You wont be able to do anything against anyone that can move behind a pillar etc in the 2.5 sec it takes you to cast a aimshot.

It could easily be fixed as a PvP set bonus to activate Sniper Training in half the time.

That is the biggest problem though.... if the other two specs can match the output of MM while MM is making optimal use of Sniper Training, why would anyone play MM?

Given equal performance from all specs and talents, it seems obvious that SV will be the best spec to play in raids.
-Unlike MM, no sniper training restricting movement.
-Unlike BM, no requirement for a pet (assuming lone wolf performs well)

I have zero issue with specs being different, or having different requirements to be played well. They're giving MM a movement restriction. It could theoretically be argued that BM's movement "restriction" is the time it takes their pet to reach a new target (though blink strike and raid design make that a non-issue in many cases). What is survival's restriction?

I intend to play MM if it's at all possible next expansion, but I'm also not going to needlessly limit myself. I have zero doubt that I'll be able to handle Sniper Training... but if the other two specs are just as powerful and don't have that restriction, what's the point?

Provided the talents are balanced properly, if you want to compete in PvE you'll be chained to the ground regardless with Focusing Shot, regardless of what spec you're playing. Focusing Shot has to be the best in that row given it's the only one with a penalty and one that restricts movement at that.

[Deleted]

It could easily be fixed as a PvP set bonus to activate Sniper Training in half the time.

If a NEW mastery requires a PvP set bonus to even be slightly viable (and the bonus to have it activated in half the time doesn't really solve the problem in any way shape or form) is a retarded design.

[Bullettime]

If a NEW mastery requires a PvP set bonus to even be slightly viable (and the bonus to have it activated in half the time doesn't really solve the problem in any way shape or form) is a retarded design.

It's not like they didn't use the PvP bonus to make Rapid Fire a non useless cooldown. Using PvP bonuses to make class skills more PvP friendly isn't anything new.

Hell, our current PvP bonus improves Focus generation so the resource works better for PvP. Is that a retarded design too? Stuff like that isn't new and happens for most specs and classes.

[Deleted]

It's not like they didn't use the PvP bonus to make Rapid Fire a non useless cooldown. Using PvP bonuses to make class skills more PvP friendly isn't anything new.

Hell, our current PvP bonus improves Focus generation so the resource works better for PvP. Is that a retarded design too? Stuff like that isn't new and happens for most specs and classes.

There's a difference between "improving" and "making viable".

The fact that Rapid Fire is a useless CD doesn't make the entire usage of it 0 in PvP, and our focus generation still happens in PvP with or without the bonus, the bonus just makes it better.

[darkwarrior42]

Provided the talents are balanced properly, if you want to compete in PvE you'll be chained to the ground regardless with Focusing Shot, regardless of what spec you're playing. Focusing Shot has to be the best in that row given it's the only one with a penalty and one that restricts movement at that.

hmmm.... interesting point. I'm not entirely sure that this would be true for every spec, but it's certainly a possibility. I suppose it depends on whether they've changed their philosophy of wanting active talents to be more powerful than passive talents, and how well pets function on the new raid fights (if there are fights where the pets are a hindrance or don't function properly, that makes Lone Wolf stronger by comparison).

But if you're right, then that will make the Sniper Training discussion irrelevant, at least for any fight where we can afford to take Focusing Shot.

Maybe just wait to see some numbers? I'd still rather see Sniper Training as a passive and not a mastery, but if we wind up having to root ourselves due to Focusing Shot it's less of an issue.

[Mormolyce]

Shrug. One spec out of three encourages standing still.

Sniper Training will actually be horrible in Challenge Modes and stuff where constant running around is a necessity.

Never heard of anyone going MM in CMs, you go SV or BM if you really need a lust. Though of course WoD may be different.

I don't actually remember moving much on my ranged toons in CMs, including Hunters. Otherwise Ele shams would be kind of screwed... and they sure aren't. The melee have to move like crazy, not so much the ranged.

- - - Updated - - -

All specs should be viable.

Viable =/= optimal in all situations.

If you must play MM in PVP, this will simply mean you don't want to gear for Mastery anyway.

[Arcanimus]

It could easily be fixed as a PvP set bonus to activate Sniper Training in half the time.

So what you're saying is we should have to have a crap set bonus to fix a broken mechanic?

Provided the talents are balanced properly, if you want to compete in PvE you'll be chained to the ground regardless with Focusing Shot, regardless of what spec you're playing. Focusing Shot has to be the best in that row given it's the only one with a penalty and one that restricts movement at that.

Given that it doesn't currently scale with Mastery for SV, i HIGHLY doubt that it'll be best for SV, erring more toward ammo because Fervor will basically be mandatory in its current implementation.

[DeicideUH]

Viable =/= optimal in all situations.

Whenever someone says to me that I should/must change spec for something it's implied my spec is not viable.

If you must play MM in PVP, this will simply mean you don't want to gear for Mastery anyway.

Someone said it better in this thread: "if you get into a situation in which your gear is just crap for that spec, you won't change gear, you'll change spec".

Also, how many variations will PvP gear have? Is it feasible to make a zero Mastery set?

[Bullettime]

So what you're saying is we should have to have a crap set bonus to fix a broken mechanic?

Given that it doesn't currently scale with Mastery for SV, i HIGHLY doubt that it'll be best for SV, erring more toward ammo because Fervor will basically be mandatory in its current implementation.

Tuning hasn't happened yet. There's no way Focusing Shot can go live without being the theoretical best as if it's not, no one will take it and opt in to its restrictions. Why hinder your movement if that 100% passive no thought and mobility encouraging talent gives the same output?

Also note that it takes a metric ton of Mastery for Survival to get any effective results beyond the base amount.

[Arcanimus]

Also note that it takes a metric ton of Mastery for Survival to get any effective results beyond the base amount.

As it stands with the current state of SV, I'm actually anticipating a MS > Crit > Mastery > Vers > Haste stat prio, making focusing shot worthless, because in order to smooth out the flow of LnL procs with a good amount of MS, you'll basically want to run Fervor.

If you take Lone Wolf, it increases the value of mastery a fair bit and decreases the value of haste a ton. Even without a numbers pass, I can tell that MS will be top stat for SV.

EDIT: Just checked current beta build. Some useful info
Current rating required for 1% (approx):
Crit 110
Crit 105 (MM ONLY)
Haste 100
Multistrike 66 (Fractional percentage reduction in cost-per-percent for SV.)
Mastery 100 (SV ONLY)
Mastery 220 (MM ONLY)
Mastery 44 (BM ONLY)

Also to note: Sniper Training currently appears to stack with Lone Wolf multiplicatievely.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, how many variations will PvP gear have? Is it feasible to make a zero Mastery set?

As of right now, it is NOT possible to have zero mastery, because ALL of the Gladiator weapons are Crit/Mastery.