The Hero Always Wins

[appleezz]

In most video games I've played, the player (the hero) always comes out on top. The villains of WoW defeated one after the other, the dragon defeated in Skyrim, and so on. But what if there was an MMO in which the hero (the players) didn't win? After facing the final boss of a story, the lore will have it as the heroes are defeated and the villain wins (players will still get loot, just not from a boss kill). Then the continuing story (the next expansion or content patch), will play out as devastating days to come, resources depleting, tension between factions increasing as the villain runs his forces rampant.

This could lead to active world events such as the victorious villain's forces attacking towns, with world bosses being generals or something of the evil force, the world itself actually being affected such as a faction city having to be evacuated until it can be cleared out again by the players. I think there's possibilities in this. What do you guys think?

Do you want the hero to always win? Or do you want to be defeated at once and playout the consequences and tough times?

[Zoaric]

The problem is, in a way, you still won; you all lived.
In another way, the story for that villain just isn't over and it often feels like a way
to simply drag out a character rather than a way to show defeat.

At least that's how I see it. It's not too bad in other forms of media, but the interactivity
of games makes this scenario hard to pull off well.

[Netherspark]

It's not about the hero losing. It's about YOU, the player losing.

Do you want to play a game where you lose?

[appleezz]

The problem is, in a way, you still won; you all lived.
In another way, the story for that villain just isn't over and it often feels like a way
to simply drag out a character rather than a way to show defeat.

At least that's how I see it. It's not too bad in other forms of media, but the interactivity
of games makes this scenario hard to pull off well.

Do you think it could be pulled off in an MMO at all? I mean there could be bosses that play major roles in the villain's force that we defeat which weakens him to the point until the players can finally finish him it off. How could it be pulled off so it doesn't feel like it's just a reason to drag out the character's story?

[Post]

Probably doesn't happen much because it feels shitty to get to the end of a game and lose...

[l33t]

Considering the outcry to the ME:3 ending...

...which had nothing to do with main character's death, but instead was because of: three coloured beams, deus ex machinae and galactic-wide magic effects. Oh, and our choices didn't mean shit - we still got three beams whatever we've done.
/facepalm

OT: hero should definitely be defeated (not dead, but defeated) and survive consequences. Surviving is fun.

[Solidito]

I prefer to win, when i put in all of the effort, i obviously want to win if I'm fully immersed.

[appleezz]

It's not about the hero losing. It's about YOU, the player losing.

Do you want to play a game where you lose?

I wouldn't mind being defeated for once to be honest. I think it'll add something interesting to a story instead of us going through each boss as the undefeated powerful beings we're portrayed as (not all the time I know). But at some point, not everything can go in our favor. I just feel like there has to be one shitty time where everything was planned accordingly to lead us to victory.

[drwelfare]

In Space Marine captain Titus got screwed

[Verain]

If you have "hero" and "villain", then "hero" has to win.


If you want an open world where anything can happen and everything is grey, that's fine, but that doesn't have "hero" and "villain".



At the end of Dragon Warrior, you could could choose to side with the bad guy. If you did, he promptly betrayed you- but that's very much the villain winning.

[appleezz]

...which had nothing to do with main character's death, but instead was because of: three coloured beams, deus ex machinae and galactic-wide magic effects. Oh, and our choices didn't mean shit - we still got three beams whatever we've done.
/facepalm

OT: hero should definitely be defeated (not dead, but defeated) and survive consequences. Surviving is fun.

Yeah this is what I mean. Obviously in lore people will die. But the players themselves will continue to survive to rebuild and push back the forces to eventually bring down the villain once and for all. It's not a complete loss, it's, how does Kael'thas put it? "Merely a setback". Just this time it's the player's turn to use that line.

[teddytous]

Some "trendy" fuckers will always try and say they want this, but the truth is if it were done 99.99% of people would be pissed and throw there controller at the screen.

Honestly too, unless it was clearly spelt out in GIANT letters saying "JUST SO YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE END AND YOU LOST, THERE IS NO OTHER ENDING" people would probably replay it over and over trying to get a different result just to get even more pissed.

Also, the only thing that would make this at all appealing would be the surprise factor, which would be ruined within a day (if not before release) by being known as "that stupid game you can't beat".

[Calfredd]

Came to this thread thinking it was about wanting more games where you are (or can be) evil like Fable or Fallout: New Vegas (Can't convince me Caesar's Legion isn't evil). Was disappointed it was about just us losing in general though I wouldn't mind a game like that.

[Zogarth]

Divinity 2 got a end where the villain wins and you lose completely. Won't spoil it, but it is pretty good. Granted the DLC continues the story to make you win, but in the vanilla version you do lose

[Solidito]

Divinity 2 got a end where the villain wins and you lose completely. Won't spoil it

You just kinda did...

[Tebayo]

If you play Alliance in WoW, you will always loose but still lots of people play Alliance.

[Jtbrig7390]

In most video games I've played, the player (the hero) always comes out on top. The villains of WoW defeated one after the other, the dragon defeated in Skyrim, and so on. But what if there was an MMO in which the hero (the players) didn't win? After facing the final boss of a story, the lore will have it as the heroes are defeated and the villain wins (players will still get loot, just not from a boss kill). Then the continuing story (the next expansion or content patch), will play out as devastating days to come, resources depleting, tension between factions increasing as the villain runs his forces rampant.

This could lead to active world events such as the victorious villain's forces attacking towns, with world bosses being generals or something of the evil force, the world itself actually being affected such as a faction city having to be evacuated until it can be cleared out again by the players. I think there's possibilities in this. What do you guys think?

Do you want the hero to always win? Or do you want to be defeated at once and playout the consequences and tough times?

Spoiler for Watch_Dogs Ending but you may want to read it.

Adien was not a good guy. He was a anti hero at best and each action he made cost the lives of his friends/family ect.. Clara getting killed was his fault and his nece was his fault as well. He tried to get revenge and be the good guy but each choice made him a badguy. In the end he lost everything. His sister and her child left him so they would be safer and he lost what friends he had.

That is why I personally like the Watch_Dogs story because no matter what you did you was a anti-hero at best and a villain at worse. You hacked peoples bank accounts and ruined lives to acheve ur own personal goal.

So because of this its why I love bad guy storys. I call it the Dexter outcome because no matter what "you" do the end result is you losing everything. The bad guy never wins.

Read at ur own risk. I personally love Anti-Hero or Villain trying to be hero storys because no matter what they do end the end they lose. Its the Dexter outcome a badguy can't win no matter what. Once a villain always a villain since you will do anything to achieve a goal.

[Post]

You just kinda did...

Yeah this thread is massive spoiler bait, leaving now. :P

[Noonanz]

Tempest Keep was merely a set back

[Dragoncurry]

Jus saying, in terms of pure combat prowess, we lost to the Lich King. Lost as in straight up died, and were about to be resurrected. That's good enough for me.