The Hero Always Wins

[jackofwind]

Sometimes in losing everything we come see the gravity of the story reveal itself.

Final Fantasy Tactics has one of the best storylines of the franchise, yet the vast majority of the playable characters and sympathetic NPCs die at the end, including every custom-made character, and even Ramza's (protagonist) fate is uncertain).

[Forumchibi]

Wasn't this the story of Final Fantasy 14? 1.0 came out and heroes are doing their own thing... oh, crap, the game sucks! Come 2.0, the story shifts into the good guys lose and the world pretty much getting reduced to ash, so everyone gets sent back in time with some of their memories gone to try to make it better a second time around.

And seeing as how I only got to level 40 or so before I got sucked back into WoW raiding and lost interest in FF, I'd say the bad guys won again.

On the topic though, if it's an MMO, I'm alright with it because it keeps going. If it's a single game or a movie, I personally hate sad/bad endings. I won't play or watch it again, it loses a lot of its meaning for me.

[Xargoth6634]

How would an MMO work where you just kept losing? I wouldn't play it, it'd just be demoralizing.

[Combatbutler]

Just because someone's a critic doesn't make them right. To me, the last half of the game felt really rushed. Ending controversy or not. The death of Thane made 110% no sense at all. He engages a human assassin from range when he has the element of surprise. First off, that's dumb, because in ME2 you can ask Thane about his assassination techniques, and he says the way he prefers to kill humans is by sneaking up behind them and severing their spine. Now, when the chips are down and he needs to put that into action, the master assassin shoots his pistol at the guy that has a hostage, AND he fucking misses? Not only that, but then he charges, unarmed, at the guy with a sword, and gets impaled. The whole time during their martial arts fight, Shepard and crew are standing their like retards with their guns pointed at Kai Leng, and this shit goes on for like 15 seconds, and at one point Thane and Kai even get separated during their fisticuffs, and for some fucking reason Shep and crew don't turn Kai Leng into a fine pink mist. They just stand there and watch while he butchers their friend. Most idiotic way to remove a character I've ever fucking seen.

Thane was more dead than alive at this point, as such his death wasn't really surprising nor bad, not to mention the only thing that was not satisfying was the ending to be honest, the rest of the game was great in my opinion.

[xinjun]

*kicked

*would be

Ohhhh that was a "what if" post. Sorry! I missed that. The word "if" would have helped

[OrcsRLame]

Sometimes in losing everything we come see the gravity of the story reveal itself.

Final Fantasy Tactics has one of the best storylines of the franchise, yet the vast majority of the playable characters and sympathetic NPCs die at the end, including every custom-made character, and even Ramza's (protagonist) fate is uncertain).

Um, what? At the end of FF Tactics, Ramza and Alma are just fine. They literally crash their own funeral, (well, Alma's funeral) for the lols. We see them ride by on Chocobos. If they survived the airship graveyard blowing up, there's no reason to assume the rest of the team didn't. The only character that died that wasn't a total piece of shit was Olan, because he got burned at the stake according to the epilogue.

[Deleted]

Anyone who says they want the hero to lose is just being a contrary child.

[apepi]

I already see the Game Over screen far too many times, not really interested in having my character die at the end, unless its some type of Terminator ending, or suicide type of mission.

You do see your lara die in tomb raider.

[OrcsRLame]

Thane was more dead than alive at this point, as such his death wasn't really surprising nor bad, not to mention the only thing that was not satisfying was the ending to be honest, the rest of the game was great in my opinion.

I'm not saying his death was surprising. I'm saying they should have done it in a way that wasn't an ass pull. There's no reason at all why Shepard and the gang couldn't have shot Kai Leng into fine pink mist during that exchange. They even have a side view, the perfect angle for taking out Kai Leng without hitting Thane. And Thane's illness only made him physically frail. His mind was as sharp as ever, but for no real reason he abandoned his tried and true assassination technique to go in guns blazing like an action movie hero.

Give me one logical reason why Thane didn't walk up to Kai Leng, pull out his knife, and sever his spine. Keep in mind Thane was already invisible and undetected, and he was clearly expecting a fight, as he had the presence of mind to arm himself with a pistol beforehand.

Also, give me one logical reason why Shep and crew couldn't paste Kai Leng after he knocked Thane away.

Edit: Rewatched the scene, it's been a while, so I got a few details wrong. It's actually worse than I remember lol. Thane goes in and puts his gun to Kai Leng's face. He successfully sneaks up on him, but instead of neutralizing the threat he does the most idiotic thing possible and reveals himself, taking his ranged weapon into melee. It was also Thane that knocked Kai Leng down, not the other way around. In fact, he knocked him on his ass, and then takes the time to reload his fucking gun, and the whole time Shepard and crew do NOTHING. Kai Leng is on his butt, in full line of fire, and they decide not to shoot his face off for no reason. Then Thane charges at the fucker with a sword, shooting his gun the whole way, then he throws his gun and tries to jump kick the space ninja in the face. Then he gets stabbed. Dumb as shit.

[Deleted]

I'm not saying his death was surprising. I'm saying they should have done it in a way that wasn't an ass pull. There's no reason at all why Shepard and the gang couldn't have shot Kai Leng into fine pink mist during that exchange. They even have a side view, the perfect angle for taking out Kai Leng without hitting Thane. And Thane's illness only made him physically frail. His mind was as sharp as ever, but for no real reason he abandoned his tried and true assassination technique to go in guns blazing like an action movie hero.

Give me one logical reason why Thane didn't walk up to Kai Leng, pull out his knife, and sever his spine. Keep in mind Thane was already invisible and undetected, and he was clearly expecting a fight, as he had the presence of mind to arm himself with a pistol beforehand.

Also, give me one logical reason why Shep and crew couldn't paste Kai Leng after he knocked Thane away.

Because Modern Bioware can't write a stable overarching plot never mind a cutscene.

[jackofwind]

Um, what? At the end of FF Tactics, Ramza and Alma are just fine. They literally crash their own funeral, (well, Alma's funeral) for the lols. We see them ride by on Chocobos. If they survived the airship graveyard blowing up, there's no reason to assume the rest of the team didn't. The only character that died that wasn't a total piece of shit was Olan, because he got burned at the stake according to the epilogue.

Two shadowy figures ride by on chocobos - you're not explicitly shown that it's Ramza because the developers wanted it to be left up in the air. The rest of the team is presumed to be dead as far as I am concerned because there is no mention of them in the epilogue, nor do we see them in cutscenes. Orran gets burned at the stake post-game. Ovelia dies in-game. Zalbaag dies in-game.

I hadn't realized that as of Valentine's Day 2012 Matsuno explicitly stated that Ramza and Alma are both alive, so I retract that. You can't argue that for years it was in question though.

[OrcsRLame]

Two shadowy figures ride by on chocobos - you're not explicitly shown that it's Ramza because the developers wanted it to be left up in the air. The rest of the team is presumed to be dead as far as I am concerned because there is no mention of them in the epilogue, nor do we see them in cutscenes. Orran gets burned at the stake post-game. Ovelia dies in-game. Zalbaag dies in-game.

I hadn't realized that as of Valentine's Day 2012 Matsuno explicitly stated that Ramza and Alma are both alive, so I retract that. You can't argue that for years it was in question though.

I think you played a different version of the game than I did. In the original PS1 version, they're not shadowy figures. You flat out see them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE4jrko8wnA Skip to 8:30. I always just assumed they left the country and took up new identities elsewhere. And yeah, I guess Ovelia dies, that kind of sucks. Delita was such a douche lol. Zalbaag kind of deserved death. Sure, in the end, he died a hero, but that would never have happened if he'd just believed Ramza in the first place. I felt bad for Zalbaag, but his death was his own fault. Unless I see evidence that the rest of your party dies, they're still alive. Obviously they wouldn't be included in the epilogue, as characters like Orlandu and Agrias can die through normal gameplay, as such it would be odd to include them in cutscenes at the end of the game. Generics not being in the ending makes perfect sense to me.

[jackofwind]

I think you played a different version of the game than I did. In the original PS1 version, they're not shadowy figures. You flat out see them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE4jrko8wnA Skip to 8:30. I always just assumed they left the country and took up new identities elsewhere. And yeah, I guess Ovelia dies, that kind of sucks. Delita was such a douche lol. Zalbaag kind of deserved death. Sure, in the end, he died a hero, but that would never have happened if he'd just believed Ramza in the first place. I felt bad for Zalbaag, but his death was his own fault. Unless I see evidence that the rest of your party dies, they're still alive. Obviously they wouldn't be included in the epilogue, as characters like Orlandu and Agrias can die through normal gameplay, as such it would be odd to include them in cutscenes at the end of the game. Generics not being in the ending makes perfect sense to me.

I'm not sure anyone anywhere pretends that Delita didn't deserve to die. As much as the Lucavi are the main antagonists of the story I always think of him as a villain. I vehemently disagree that Zalbaag deserved to die, though his blind trust in Dycedarg is what led to his fall - he was not actually a bad person as you see many times in cutscenes (and not only does he die but he is reanimated and has to plead for Ramza to kill him again - pretty brutal really).

I always just assumed that most of the party died in the explosion because they weren't shown to you afterwards, but I suppose it does make sense since they can die over the course of the game. It might be that I've never let a character perma-die that I never thought of it that way.

[Yvaelle]

*MASSIVE SPOILER WARNING*

In general, some of my favourite games of all time involve the hero ultimately losing: perhaps winning the final battle, but losing the war.

Deus Ex Machina - JC Denton ultimately 'wins' but all three endings involve someone else essentially using you for their own means. You might even go on to live a comfortable life - but the justice you fought for, and/or the world you sought to protect - is handed over to a new and equally dubious entity (of your choosing).

FTL: Faster Than Light - you are losing a war badly to rebel forces, your fast-ship knows a critical weakness in their ship-of-the-line. The game begins when you ditch your comrades to die for you (lol bothans), while you try to outrun the advancing enemy forces fast enough to reach the final defensive line of the empire. You arrive, and one of two things happens - either you beat the final ship, or you they beat you. Here's the interesting thing though - even if you beat their ship-of-the-line - the rebels ultimately win the war.

Portal - sure, you escape - but GlaDOS always wins. You have a portal gun, but who knows what tech she has down there - and as of Portal 2 - it sounds like she's decided its time to ditch the lab and come top-side. Winning in portal is surviving.

X-Com: Enemy Within (and Unknown) - sure, you save Earth from alien invasion - your tireless efforts force mankind to become post-human, to develop technology that can rival aliens - and unlock the psionic potential hidden away in our brains. You know what though? It's pretty clear that the alien species all come from different worlds, (different atmospheric preferences, for example) which means we're not being invaded by a single alien species - we're being subdued by an alien empire. If you win in X-Com, it means the aliens underestimated Earth - but it doesn't mean we won - it means we just picked a fight with a vastly more advanced empire, ruling at least half a dozen worlds (based only on the species homeworlds).

I had more examples but I got distracted by how awesome all these games are and forgot them

[frogger237]

The heroes do lose all the time we just end up with the final victory because it gets annoying as hell fighting the same guy over and over. Our loses in WoW tend to be at the very end of an expansion/start of the new one. Depending on when you decide to quit, your toon could have lost the final victory.

If we were the villains it would be the heroes who are rotated out with us getting the final victories on them.

[Zaelsino]

Well yeah, a good story usually isn't about the perfect hero casually obliterating everything in its path with the unbridled power of righteousness. They need to be tried and tested and yes, often times defeated and beaten and therefore given a credible obstacle to overcome.

I think losing is more common in games than you'd think, especially in the RPG genre. A decent amount of RPGs I've played deal out pretty crushing defeats/impossible battles/colossal party fuck ups throughout the game. Sometimes in the story, sometimes in battle.

Going too far in the "good guys lose all the time because hue hue look how cynical and edgy we are" direction isn't any better though. People want some catharsis.

[ro9ue]

Lol this thread looks like a confidential CIA document.

In a lot of stories it's not just win or lose. There's often a clear story goal, but achieving that sometimes has great sacrifice.

In terms of MMOs I like the whole premise of LK 1 shotting us to be saved by Tirion. It's probably the closest you'll get to a defeat in an MMO.

[Jester Joe]

What about the games that you can play as technically the bad guy?

Like, inFamous, I wouldn't consider the guy going around killing innocents to drain their life away a "hero".
Or the good old Holy Invasion of Privacy Badman: What did I do to Deserve This? on the PSP, the game's goal is to protect the evil Overlord and kill the heroes.

Overall though, like people have said, it becomes an issue if the hero loses completely in the end. A loss here and there is fine, and makes for a good story at times, or at least an epic feeling. Like in Ocarina of Time, you go through all 3 Temples as a kid to try to stop Ganondorf from getting the power he wants, yet in the end, it ends up he only gets the power because you opened the door for him.

[Yvaelle]

Ever played the old text adventure Jinxter? You survive everything....and after you solved the entire adventure, you get run over by a bus....

Actually this reminds me - way back in Grade 5 our teacher let us play with one of the school computers - and me and some of the other nerds decided to program games. My game was about a king leading his armies - and you made choices about how to command them (it was really closer to a choose your own adventure).

If you won the game, you were assembling before the enemy castle - knowing you had obliterated his forces in previous battles - and expecting a surrender or futile (for your enemy) seige (since you also could take control of his crops, and potentially divert the underground river upstream of his castle so his wells would dry up). Victory seemed assured, then just before the credits roll - a dragon (in text and shitty pixel pictures) shows up and burns your army down in the night - and the enemy castle.

The unwritten moral of the story was - Dragons win, Humans lose Up until that point, there had been no mention that dragons even existed - and the only mythological creature was a unicorn your men report seeing on the outskirts of a dark forest (do you pursue it into the woods?)

Dragonus Ex Machina

[Aphrel]

the sc2 mission in utter darkness comes to mind. Defending against impossible odds for a certain leght of time against something that attacks harder and harder and harder. (or grows in power more and more.
Whould be an excellent way of having a hardmode bonus loot aswell. The longer you can stand your ground the better the reward

the last wc3 campagin against archimonde was a pretty good example aswell of something that eventually beats you. but as longa s you held it off until the trap was ready youd won