Malaysian Airlines flight carrying 295 people has been shot down in Ukraine

[Deleted]

They're pro Russian rebels, they want to be a part of Russia. Putin wants the same. They may dislike him and they may be stupid, but they both want the same thing. Whilst he does not excise complete control, to think that there is an influence or link whatsoever to at least a small section of them is more likely a situation than not.

There's an influence because if Russia was purely against them, it would be the end. South Ossetia doesn't matter.

[Deleted]

Do you know that they had referendum before that on should USSR be kept or divided, and absolute majority voted to keep it as is?
Sadly for the ones who came into power after failed putch keeping USSR together was too much effort, so for quick power grab they went against wishes of people and dissolved it...

They don't teach you about the Singing Revolution, I take it?

The Baltics voted to stay in the USSR just like the Tatars voted for the annexation of Crimea.

[Ninepenny]

They're pro Russian rebels, they want to be a part of Russia. Putin wants the same.

No, just no.

[May90]

There's an influence because if Russia was purely against them, it would be the end. South Ossetia doesn't matter.

No idea why you brought Ossetia up, but you still haven't explained how rebels "consider Putin a traitor".

No, just no.

Yes, just yes. Read what they said when they started the rebellion.

[Kellhound]

No, just no.

You really do not think those areas would not be absorbed into Russia in a second if Putin though he could do so without issue?

[Deleted]

No idea why you brought Ossetia up, but you still haven't explained how rebels "consider Putin a traitor".

Because South Ossetia recognized Novorossiya? Do you have any idea?
And why? Because they feel he's not supporting them and he abandoned them.

[Shalcker]

How's Strelkov for proof? Why do the separatists need a Russian citizen to act as commander of paramilitary forces?

He was available after Crimea, he got lots of media attention at Slavyansk, and he is also friend of Boroday who ended up as DNR head after all their infighting, sniper shootings, and vehicles being blown up with bombs...

In fact it is much more interesting how Boroday ended up (and remained) at his position, Strelkov being declared Minister of Defence of DNR was just result of that.

They couldn't find one of their own?

None quite as trustworthy. As the joke goes, "Two Ukrainians is a guerilla unit; three Ukrainians is guerilla unit with traitor" Looking at how things happened in Donetsk, it doesn't seem that far from truth...

It's interesting how he's former FSB and GRU and a career "separatist."

In fact FSB and GRU had kind of rivalry, and Strelkov was part of FSB at some point but not GRU. GRU is Ukrainian invention since Ukrainians see GRU agents everywhere...

And what about Borodai, another Russian citizen, being prime-minister?

Why do Russian citizens, including one with a self-documented FSB past, hold key positions among the separatists?

Yes, quite interesting indeed. Hopefully he, being journalist and all, will publish memoirs at some point.

[Ninepenny]

You really do not think those areas would not be absorbed into Russia in a second if Putin though he could do so without issue?

Yes, for economic and political reasons. 2 options were given during referendum: staying part of Ukraine or gaining independence. People overwhelmingly chose the latter one and Putin seems just fine with their choice.

Another region which in essence would be a mess of economic burden and unloyal population isn't something Putin seeks.

[Shalcker]

They're pro Russian rebels, they want to be a part of Russia. Putin wants the same.

That doesn't seem to match what Putin said and done though... they asked for accession right after referendum but they are still not even recognized as independent entities.

[MerinPally]

No, just no.

You're joking right? They had a sham of a vote to unify with Russia and supposedly they voted overwhelmingly to join them. It's similar people. They are pro russian seperatists. Igor Girkin who people have mentioned as one of these guys, is a pro russian rebel - fact. Putin already tried to take Crimea, do you really think he wouldn't even try with the other parts which are controlled by pro russian rebels?

[Kellhound]

Yes, for economic and political reasons. 2 options were given during referendum: staying part of Ukraine or gaining independence. People overwhelmingly chose the latter one and Putin seems just fine with their choice.

Another region which in essence would be a mess of economic burden and unloyal population isn't something Putin seeks.

Unloyal? Here I was thinking it was a region populated by Russian that wanted to be part of Russia again. That is what the rebels like to make it seem...

[MerinPally]

That doesn't seem to match what Putin said and done though... they asked for accession right after referendum but they are still not even recognized as independent entities.

Because it was illegal. Can you imagine the shitstorm if he went and just took it after that? The entire world is saying "stop this shit" if Putin decided to say #YOLO and do it anyway that would be an incredibly stupid thing to do, he just can't. IT's not an option for him. Although he tried with Crimea, why would you not believe he'd try it elsewhere.

[Kellhound]

That doesn't seem to match what Putin said and done though... they asked for accession right after referendum but they are still not even recognized as independent entities.

Too politically costly, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't like to have it.

[Shalcker]

Because it was illegal. Can you imagine the shitstorm if he went and just took it after that?

Local support to such move simply wasn't quite as overwhelming as in Crimea there. Nothing to do with "legality" really.

Also Donbass accession would be a lot more costly then in case of Crimea for Russia.

International opinion is pretty secondary in this case.

Although he tried with Crimea, why would you not believe he'd try it elsewhere.

He didn't "try" in Crimea, he did and succeeded. Boroday and his guys thought they can repeat it in Donbass and get same support, they were wrong. I do wonder who supports them from Moscow, but that doesn't seem to be Putin.

[Ninepenny]

Unloyal? Here I was thinking it was a region populated by Russian that wanted to be part of Russia again. That is what the rebels like to make it seem...

You thought wrong then. Imagine that.

Same goes for Putin, who didn't even recognize the republics.

[Kellhound]

Local support to such move simply wasn't quite as overwhelming as in Crimea there. Nothing to do with "legality" really.

Also Donbass accession would be a lot more costly then in case of Crimea for Russia.

International opinion is pretty secondary in this case.

He didn't "try" in Crimea, he did and succeeded. Boroday and his guys thought they can repeat it in Donbass and get same support, they were wrong. I do wonder who supports them from Moscow, but that doesn't seem to be Putin.

I guess a generally useless military naval base is more important than factories?

[MerinPally]

He didn't "try" in Crimea, he did and succeeded

Illegally. Does this word not exist in Russian or something? Are we having a translation error or are you wilfully ignoring it?

[Kellhound]

You thought wrong then. Imagine that.

Same goes for Putin, who didn't even recognize the republics.

It IS an area populated by ethnic Russians, though I can't see why anyone would want to be part of Russia by choice, so you may be correct they do not want to be part of Russia.

As I said, costs not worth it, does not mean desire not there.

[Ulmita]

I guess a generally useless military naval base is more important than factories?

East Ukraine never belonged to the Russia. Crimea did up to 1954, yeah that's 60 years ago and not 10000 years.. Thus everyone was still a Russian in there and why in the voting 95% voted to go back to Russia.

That military naval base is golden in there. Its their exit to the Mediterranean. Ofc it worth's more that some random factories =)
They tried to take their naval base from Syria and failed and now they tried the same thing with Crimea and failed big time. Fun times.

[Kellhound]

Illegally. Does this word not exist in Russian or something? Are we having a translation error or are you wilfully ignoring it?

In Russia "illegal" just means "large enough bribe has not been paid yet".