Eve... how is it an RPG?

[Rukh]

There in-lies my confusion as the game seems to be more of a "You make up everything" and thus this is an RPG. To me, and maybe I'm simple here, it's like picking up Gauntlet and saying it's an RPG because I'm going to personally fabricate a background for the Mage.

From what I've personally seen, while you do create a character you never seem to actually control or move it. It's more like Eve is a hybrid between something that wants to be a character-interaction-less game and a Descent: Freespace only without flight controls.


Wait...
Was Descent also an Rpg then?

Yeah but I just said you have a story and quests like an RPG. People tend to do more of the player driven role playing elements than the scripted, but it does exist. There's npc characters and they have lives and sell drugs and are movie stars, etc.

I didn't play a ton of EVE but a good example would be the Sisters of Eve questline where they send you to investigate rogue drones and it goes through this long story of doing side-quests to get people to help you and results in a fairly intriguing sinister end that sets up some of the main plot points of some of the added rogue drone content.

[Wilian]

Character progression that affects the game and how you approach it? Check

It's an RPG. To emphasise what is RPG, read the following:

What is RPG?

RPG is a game where you create a character that has a role which you can usually define yourself through statistics and attributes (how strong he is, how smart he is, is he a good talker) and skills he uses (What weapons and spells he is proficient with). Important factor is that the game doesn't let you max out majority of stuff and forces decisions between various things you'd like to accomplish.

Many of the things that character is able to do, should be detracted from the player skill (level 1 marching into arena of Oblivion is a good example of RPG done "bad", when you can triumph as the Arena Grandmaster.) and revolve around what the character can do. How else your character would have a role that is actually presented in gameplay instead of imaginary acting? Or if you will, larping. Without important character-centric capabilities and choices affecting game as a whole, you'd be basically playing just another pure action/CYOA game.

This whole "games with RPG elemets are RPG games" thing is quite bullshit along with the whole "you can pretend to be the character!" argument which is often brought up aswell. By that definition Transport Tycoon is RPG, taking a role of business mogul to bring your corporation up in the world.

Sad thing is that nowdays pure RPG games are just being watered down to accomodate the usually lowest common denominator, which means less of everything not to overwhelm the potential untapped playerbase.

It's side effects are clearly visible in how more and more RPGs which are supposed to give this diverse gameplay full of possibilities (And often marketed so) is more often than not pigeonholed into pure action combat segments with a sort of "minigame" of the formerly usual RPG elements in between.

[Deleted]

It is a game in which you can Roleplay, it is a Roleplaying Game.

/thread.

[zealo]

EVE is not a RPG in its traditional western sense, its a sandbox MMO.

[Deleted]

An RPG is simply a genre of game predicated on gameplay which emphasizes; Role (an actor's part in a play, movie, etc.), role (the function assumed or part played by a person or thing in a particular situation.) or roll (To throw, as dice).

A character, cause or persona are not in of themselves Role Playing Games. That is to say, Mario Bros. 3 is not an RPG because as a video game it must be bound by rules of operation; gameplay. There is literally no way to play or create a video game otherwise. Games to the contra can not and do not exist. It is a contradiction.

The relation to being a "plumber" or "Mario" are not factors of gameplay in Super Mario Bros. 3. The gameplay of Mario Bros. 3 is predicated and emphasizes running, jumping, collection and other tasks. Whereas the gameplay of, say Baldur's Gate is predicated and emphasizes the relation of a player accepting a Role, role or roll as it's operation of gameplay. That is all Role Playing Games are; Role, role or roll.

"Being the car" in Gran Turismo is not the gameplay. The gameplay is driving, piloting, racing, etc.

"Being the witcher" is the gameplay of The Witcher 2.

Best genre description I've ever read.

[Deleted]

Eve... how is it an RPG?

First of all, perhaps you should have some experience in things you're forming an opinion on. If you don't understand EVE, that's because you've not played it properly, and as such you're in no way an authority on what it is and isn't, and you shouldn't really even have an opinion on the matter.

Secondly, have you ever even sat down on a couch with a bunch of friends, with pencils and character sheets, and actually played a real RPG? Or do you have some concept that RPG only has something to do with computer games? Because, if you have no personal experience in RPGs, then you really shouldn't be forming an opinion on those, either.

Thirdly, how is it an RPG? Well, here's a great example of how:

http://eve.klaki.net/heist/

A guy, posing as someone who's loyal to the corporation, infiltrates the corporation over a year of real time, and is the key figure in bringing down that corporation and causing huge losses to the CEO of the corporation.

If that's not successful roleplaying, then I don't know what is.

I'd suggest you get some actual PnP RPG experience so you know what actual roleplaying entails, then play EVE for a few months and actually get into it, and then see if you can make the leap from one to the other.

[Wilian]

It is a game in which you can Roleplay, it is a Roleplaying Game.

/thread.

You can larp in any game, doesn't make them RPGs.

EVE is not a RPG in its traditional western sense, its a sandbox MMO.

Being sandbox doesn't take away it's RPG mechanics and roots.

[Deleted]

It's not. It's an economy/bussiness simulator set in space.

[Wilian]

It's not. It's an economy/bussiness simulator set in space.

Just because it has more surrounding systems in it doesn't take away from it's RPG systems.

[Pacumeni]

First of all, perhaps you should have some experience in things you're forming an opinion on. If you don't understand EVE, that's because you've not played it properly, and as such you're in no way an authority on what it is and isn't, and you shouldn't really even have an opinion on the matter.

Secondly, have you ever even sat down on a couch with a bunch of friends, with pencils and character sheets, and actually played a real RPG? Or do you have some concept that RPG only has something to do with computer games? Because, if you have no personal experience in RPGs, then you really shouldn't be forming an opinion on those, either.

Look, Mr. Thought Police, everyone is allowed to have an opinion, regardless of whether it's flawed or not.

On Topic, @OP: I think Fencers' summary is a good place to begin understanding the key points you want.

[Deleted]

Look, Mr. Thought Police, everyone is allowed to have an opinion, regardless of whether it's flawed or not.

OK? Well, how are you going to form an informed opinion on something you know absolutely nothing about? You're not. Uninformed opinions are the reason why certain places in the world are the way they are. If only people based their opinions on science, facts and experience, rather than absolutely nothing but a few misfiring synapses.

[Pacumeni]

OK? Well, how are you going to form an informed opinion on something you know absolutely nothing about? You're not. Uninformed opinions are the reason why certain places in the world are the way they are. If only people based their opinions on science, facts and experience, rather than absolutely nothing but a few misfiring synapses.

This really only matters in the educated world, and I think a casual discussion about defining characteristics of a genre of game hardly qualifies as such. Even so, he came into the thread with the possibility that he could be wrong, and to possibly have a discussion about it. Brow-beating him for not being experienced in some area in which he's seeking clarification--albeit with some initial doubt--probably isn't the best way of going about it.

In short, this isn't worth getting your hackles up.

[kcolraWertex]

OK? Well, how are you going to form an informed opinion on something you know absolutely nothing about? You're not. Uninformed opinions are the reason why certain places in the world are the way they are. If only people based their opinions on science, facts and experience, rather than absolutely nothing but a few misfiring synapses.

This.
Everyone is allowed to have an opinion but their opinion does not change facts. There are too many of these threads and we wouldn't have to repeat the discussion several times if people educated themselves like Sydänyö suggested. It was not an act of censoring someones opinion, just an informative post on where to learn what an RPG actually is before creating threads based on your own misconceptions.

[Pacumeni]

This.
Everyone is allowed to have an opinion but their opinion does not change facts. There are too many of these threads and we wouldn't have to repeat the discussion several times if people educated themselves like Sydänyö suggested. It was not an act of censoring someones opinion, just an informative post on where to learn what an RPG actually is before creating threads based on your own misconceptions.

I don't think it was stated anywhere that the OP was actually trying to change any definitions here. The latter part of Sydänyö's post gave some information explaining how EVE can be perceived that way, yes, but the first half was just lambasting.

I mean, sure, everyone could study to gain a better understanding of another field, but not everyone is going to study for something they have nothing more than a passing curiosity about. We don't have a lot of information here about the OP, but it could very well be that asking him to go "experience" in PnP RPGs followed by months of EVE Online would be similar to asking someone to obtain a full CCNA when all he wants to do is set up a LAN in his home. (Don't take the comparison at scale, it's an example to get the point across) It's not exactly a conservative option for someone who may just have a slight interest about it:

I don't particularly care if it is or isn't but [...]

Doesn't really sound like he really wants anything more than a cursory explanation, which several other people have already put forth. Anything more than that, without invitation is quite off-topic.

And really, if the main crux of the frustration was that there are "too many" of these threads out there, it should've been suggested that he read one of those instead, or perhaps even linked to one.

[Ealyssa]

By that definition literally every single video game ever made is an RPG.

Historicaly a RPG let you specialize in some way your character gameplay and his lore. The liberty accorded to the player is also a factor of the RPG "spirit". And by these points EVE is certainly the most "RPG" of every modern MMORPG.

Stop watching video of the game. Trying it is self explanatory.

[Deleted]

I hate to be "that voice" but really, what is the argument here? What are people trying to achieve? Does it somehow matter to anyone whether EVE (or any game) is dubbed an RPG or not?

Given the 'definitions' rolled out by people in this thread are so broad and contradictory, we're not even close to defining what it means for a game to be an RPG.

A) "You play the ROLE of a character" When clearly Mario is not an RPG,
B) You play "yourself" in the place of a protagonist, like Skyrim or Baldur's gate. This however rules out the Witcher or Mass Effect or the Final Fantasy Series
C) You are not constrained by the gameplay mechanics (Skyrim is open world, you build your class as you wish). This causes problems for games like Dark Alliance, where you pick a class at the beginning and are locked into that.
D) A Racing sim could be classed as an RPG, if you have a career mode. You take on the role of an aspiring driver, you have to progress in skill and gear (cars) and there's a progression of difficulty the further you play.
E) It must have numbers and values, things to look up and datamine so you can tailor your character to exactly how you want it. This would possibly rule out the Fable series, or Dishonoured!

In the end, if EVE players have found ways to role-play their character, then it's an RPG. If, however, you play EVE via spreadsheet, then for you it's not an RPG. It might be a space sim, a market sim, a fancy farmville (Planetary Interaction).

There is already a Megathread for EVE, and if people want to debate there, they can feel free. But, though I don't have issue with people posing interesting questions on forums, I feel that this thread is not going to go anywhere productive, given how we don't even have a clear definition on what makes a game an RPG in the first place.

As a Long time player of EVE, I can honestly say it is as much an RPG as WoW is. It's a sandbox, and if you chose to RPG, then EVE gives you the tools to do so. Dungeons and Dragons could be just a dungeon crawler if all the people were interested in was killing mobs and levelling up. You could easily make plotless dungeons and scenarios that are just there for people to fight monsters and get loot. However, all D&D does is give you a toolset to do with what you wish. The players bring the RPG.

[Absintheminded]

I have an opinion that has a strong chance of being wrong but i dont care because everybody should respect my opinion!

(all caps for context)

[Deleted]

EVE is at its core a capitalism simulator.

But it's also probably more of an RPG than any other MMO due to its sandbox element. You can be whatever you want to be in EVE.

[Wilian]

EVE is at its core a capitalism simulator.

But it's also probably more of an RPG than any other MMO due to its sandbox element. You can be whatever you want to be in EVE.

It's not RPG due to it's sandbox elements. It's RPG because of it's extensive character customization (no, not visual..) that will affect how you play the game.

[Deleted]

It's not RPG due to it's sandbox elements. It's RPG because of it's extensive character customization (no, not visual..) that will affect how you play the game.

An RPG isn't defined solely by character customisation. EVE allows you to role play much more effectively than WoW for example.