Individual player talk: skill, talent, and raiding psychology

[awebz]

I would like to break into raiding at a very high level in this game. I believe it's necessary to have a mentality of continuous improvement, transparent self-evaluation, and managing your raiding psychology.

The individual "skill" of competitive raiding I believe comes down to one factor with several different measurable metrics. The single factor is micromanaging your focus/attention. The measurable metrics are: survivability, raid awareness (observing and reacting to your team members in real-time), rotating (dps, tps, hps), and speed of mastering new encounter mechanics. And it is necessary to have a very high level of focus (that is manifest through all of these factors) that you bring to every raid and maintain throughout your raid night.

Obviously the high end guilds have rosters full of extremely talented players who have the dedication and have honed these skills over the years, whether consciously or sub-consciously. I say consciously or sub-consciously because you won't find many people out there that want to talk about what I am talking about here. Most people like to pass it off with their egos ("rawr I'm just so good at video games") and having the charity to help others improve can be viewed as a weakness. The ego stroking and elitist jerkism in this game is real, but I'm not bashing it, it's what makes the game fun for some people.

However, this is were the emergent player needs to have their psychology right. It is necessary to be able to take harsh criticism and "hang" with people that can sometimes come off as assholes without taking it personally. By understanding that you are not a naturally bad player--you are continuously improving and learning. With your dedication you can only get better. Though everyone will have their natural strengths and weakness (you could call this part talent), everyone (even players dismissed as "bad") can always get better. And I believe every player has the ability to improve to a world-class level with enough dedication.

Why am I posting this?

Though this is just a basic outline of the factors I believe to be in play with high-end raiding, I just want to get others opinions and make sure I've "got it right," or is there something else I've missed?

Thanks

[Ator]

I think playing a game is an activity like any other:
- Work
- Sport
- Dance
- Talk

Since the day you born, you follow a unique path that will make you worse/better than other person in any activity.

Hypothetically speaking: if 2 people followed the same path since birth and A is better than B at playing WoW, then it is ok to say that A is genetically (skill/talent?) better than B.

You can improve by dedicating more time on it. But some people can have years experience ahead of you.

[JemiS]

The thing I don't see anywhere in your post is doing research.

IMO, to keep up, there's a lot of research you need to do, especially if you're catching up from a deficit. Knowing who the theory crafters for your class are, who's good and who's not. Knowing how to theory craft some yourself, and pick what works and what doesn't. Research strats, trying out builds, and talking to other people about what they've found works or is useful in a specific situation.

[Alroxas]

I would like to break into raiding at a very high level in this game... Though everyone will have their natural strengths and weakness (you could call this part talent), everyone (even players dismissed as "bad") can always get better. And I believe every player has the ability to improve to a world-class level with enough dedication.

Um... how would you reconcile a player who just can't keep up the APM needed to be at the "world-class" level? Certainly there are skill caps that players reach and can't overcome through practice.

Then you also have the issues that are sometimes beyond a players control. For instance, Oceanic players (go Aussies!) constantly have to play with high amounts of lag (at least 200+ MS) so even if their reaction times were amazing, their performance might look sub-par. Or the example of where a player's computer just isn't strong enough to keep at least 30fps on a boss fight with 24 other players (and their spell effects). Sometimes that's not because their computer isn't powerful enough but because the encounter was graphically poorly designed (looking at you Elegon in MSV).

And finally, there's the issue of time necessary to be at the high level raiding. Obviously the more time you (and your team) can spend raiding the better as it allows people to learn and improve, but I would venture to say that most of us have other time commitments outside of WoW (i.e. Work, SO, School) so there's a natural barrier there as well. Assuming all things equal, a player who could spend more time would have an advantage over a similar player with less time (e.g., 5 nights of 4hr raids vs 1~2 nights of 4hr raids).

Finally in terms of psychology, you missed an important aspect. What is the end goal for the player who wants to raid at the "high level"? Loot isn't a good motivator since these teams typically grind on bosses quite a bit. The race to world first (or even realm first) while motivating is also pretty tough on the psyche. The motivation is an important keystone that if removed leads very readily into burnout. That and content that has been a long time... *wink*SoO*wink*

[mistahwilshire]

The thing I don't see anywhere in your post is doing research.

IMO, to keep up, there's a lot of research you need to do, especially if you're catching up from a deficit. Knowing who the theory crafters for your class are, who's good and who's not. Knowing how to theory craft some yourself, and pick what works and what doesn't. Research strats, trying out builds, and talking to other people about what they've found works or is useful in a specific situation.

If you want to be the best then you're also striving to be the one developing all of these things. If you're trying to gain all your knowledge from sources that have already done it then you're way behind and not a top raiding guild/player.

Common sense and the ability to understand a fight based on a description of mechanics are honestly some of the largest parts to raiding at a top level. A lot of people for some reason can't grasp an entire fight until they've seen it and done it a bunch.

[Erolian]

Staying positive while having time and dedication are like 99% of what it takes to be good at WoW. The other 1% is the ability to use google to supplement your hopefully already present ability to read your abilities and apply them with a logical thought process. APM/talent/physical dexterity are almost non-existent compared to basically any other competitive form of gaming. Assuming you don't have a severe physical condition of some kind ANYONE should be able to meet the requirements.

[Lessthanzer0]

Most people like to pass it off with their egos ("rawr I'm just so good at video games") and having the charity to help others improve can be viewed as a weakness. The ego stroking and elitist jerkism in this game is real, but I'm not bashing it, it's what makes the game fun for some people.

not sure if you are targeting this statement at just the high end guilds but from my experience they are the ones willing to take time and help people. there are a few sites out there that let you submit your armory for an audit or ask questions and you'll get help from a top tier raider. The e-peen stroking group are those that won't accept help or ask for help when they need it. They can be found anywhere in the game from LFR to Heroic.

[mistahwilshire]

And finally, there's the issue of time necessary to be at the high level raiding. Obviously the more time you (and your team) can spend raiding the better as it allows people to learn and improve, but I would venture to say that most of us have other time commitments outside of WoW (i.e. Work, SO, School) so there's a natural barrier there as well. Assuming all things equal, a player who could spend more time would have an advantage over a similar player with less time (e.g., 5 nights of 4hr raids vs 1~2 nights of 4hr raids).

Most top raiders work and/or go to school. You can absolutely raid at a server first level and maintain everything else in your life. I've been doing it for near a decade. Being able to execute when it's time to execute is another thing most raiders lack. Screwing around after wipes, taking forever to run back, being unprepared with consumables. All that crap adds up.

[awebz]

The thing I don't see anywhere in your post is doing research.

IMO, to keep up, there's a lot of research you need to do, especially if you're catching up from a deficit. Knowing who the theory crafters for your class are, who's good and who's not. Knowing how to theory craft some yourself, and pick what works and what doesn't. Research strats, trying out builds, and talking to other people about what they've found works or is useful in a specific situation.

Thanks, I agree that research is fundamentally important to making you a good raider, but it's not the skill factor of execution (x player is better than y player). That said, being better prepared and having done your homework can be a huge advantage. However, as you look at world-first level raiding, these players are having to learn and react to new mechanics quickly that are not known about/no one has seen before. If it takes you longer to learn and understand the intricacies of a mechanic then the rest of the raid, you are holding them back.

So that is where the speed of percieving and mastering new encounter mechanics will set apart a great player from a world first player.

[mistahwilshire]

Staying positive while having time and dedication are like 99% of what it takes to be good at WoW. The other 1% is the ability to use google to supplement your hopefully already present ability to read your abilities and apply them with a logical thought process. APM/talent/physical dexterity are almost non-existent compared to basically any other competitive form of gaming. Assuming you don't have a severe physical condition of some kind ANYONE should be able to meet the requirements.

You'd be surprised how many people there are that can't multitask moving out of fire, dispelling X debuff on Y player, and avoiding Z player due to some mechanic at the same time. There are a lot of people who simply cannot process multiple things on the fly.

[awebz]

Um... how would you reconcile a player who just can't keep up the APM needed to be at the "world-class" level? Certainly there are skill caps that players reach and can't overcome through practice.

Then you also have the issues that are sometimes beyond a players control. For instance, Oceanic players (go Aussies!) constantly have to play with high amounts of lag (at least 200+ MS) so even if their reaction times were amazing, their performance might look sub-par. Or the example of where a player's computer just isn't strong enough to keep at least 30fps on a boss fight with 24 other players (and their spell effects). Sometimes that's not because their computer isn't powerful enough but because the encounter was graphically poorly designed (looking at you Elegon in MSV).

And finally, there's the issue of time necessary to be at the high level raiding. Obviously the more time you (and your team) can spend raiding the better as it allows people to learn and improve, but I would venture to say that most of us have other time commitments outside of WoW (i.e. Work, SO, School) so there's a natural barrier there as well. Assuming all things equal, a player who could spend more time would have an advantage over a similar player with less time (e.g., 5 nights of 4hr raids vs 1~2 nights of 4hr raids).

Finally in terms of psychology, you missed an important aspect. What is the end goal for the player who wants to raid at the "high level"? Loot isn't a good motivator since these teams typically grind on bosses quite a bit. The race to world first (or even realm first) while motivating is also pretty tough on the psyche. The motivation is an important keystone that if removed leads very readily into burnout. That and content that has been a long time... *wink*SoO*wink*

Thanks, your points are well noted. If a player's APM I think this is the problem: They should have their rotation as simplified as possible, and know it so well that they can spend as little attention on rotating as possible and spend more of their attention/focus on raid awareness.

However, it may be that certain humans have natural "caps" in the ammount of mental focus they are able to spend, and this could be the skill caps you are refering to.

- - - Updated - - -

You'd be surprised how many people there are that can't multitask moving out of fire, dispelling X debuff on Y player, and avoiding Z player due to some mechanic at the same time. There are a lot of people who simply cannot process multiple things on the fly.

Such players probably just have a casual mindset and don't think much about getting better at the game. Or they tell themselves "I'm just not that good."

I'm the type of person where no one can tell me what I can't do, because I'm going to do it. Even if I can't at the moment, or I made a mistake, I will suceed next time.

[Deja Thoris]

Such players probably just have a casual mindset and don't think much about getting better at the game. Or they tell themselves "I'm just not that good."

I'm the type of person where no one can tell me what I can't do, because I'm going to do it. Even if I can't at the moment, or I made a mistake, I will suceed next time.

If that were true everybody with time and determination in buckets should be world class yet they aren't. Given any thought as to why that is or are you just going to dismiss it?

People that excel at this kind of stuff have a certain basic skillset that is better than that of your average Joe. I'm not sure what cognitive or physical attributes it encompasses but not everyone can do it.

[awebz]

If that were true everybody with time and determination in buckets should be world class yet they aren't. Given any thought as to why that is or are you just going to dismiss it?

People that excel at this kind of stuff have a certain basic skillset that is better than that of your average Joe. I'm not sure what cognitive or physical attributes it encompasses but not everyone can do it.

I am begining to think that the "natural talent" aspect, or what those players posses is an above average ability to focus, micro-manage and react to multiple stimulai at once, which can vary greatly from person to person.

But there could also be reasons why the person with time and determination still gets stuck. For instance if they are particularly bad at self-assesment, don't surround themselves with better players, or have a bad psychology which affects their play.

There could be any number of reasons, depending on the individual. They may be particularly bad at assesing what they are doing wrong

[Larynx]

I would like to break into raiding at a very high level in this game. I believe it's necessary to have a mentality of continuous improvement, transparent self-evaluation, and managing your raiding psychology.

The individual "skill" of competitive raiding I believe comes down to one factor with several different measurable metrics. The single factor is micromanaging your focus/attention. The measurable metrics are: survivability, raid awareness (observing and reacting to your team members in real-time), rotating (dps, tps, hps), and speed of mastering new encounter mechanics. And it is necessary to have a very high level of focus (that is manifest through all of these factors) that you bring to every raid and maintain throughout your raid night.

Obviously the high end guilds have rosters full of extremely talented players who have the dedication and have honed these skills over the years, whether consciously or sub-consciously. I say consciously or sub-consciously because you won't find many people out there that want to talk about what I am talking about here. Most people like to pass it off with their egos ("rawr I'm just so good at video games") and having the charity to help others improve can be viewed as a weakness. The ego stroking and elitist jerkism in this game is real, but I'm not bashing it, it's what makes the game fun for some people.

However, this is were the emergent player needs to have their psychology right. It is necessary to be able to take harsh criticism and "hang" with people that can sometimes come off as assholes without taking it personally. By understanding that you are not a naturally bad player--you are continuously improving and learning. With your dedication you can only get better. Though everyone will have their natural strengths and weakness (you could call this part talent), everyone (even players dismissed as "bad") can always get better. And I believe every player has the ability to improve to a world-class level with enough dedication.

Why am I posting this?

Though this is just a basic outline of the factors I believe to be in play with high-end raiding, I just want to get others opinions and make sure I've "got it right," or is there something else I've missed?

Thanks

A big thing you missed is likely motivation. I fundamentally believe that no one is actually bad at a video game, unless they happen to be mentally impaired the concepts and challenges in WoW are really actually not that hard. The difference between a high level and low level (skilled) player is how much they invest into actually succeeding. If you don't try, you'll fail. If you do try, you'll win. Simple as that. Spend a couple hours a week reading about class dicussions + theorycrafting, look at your logs, see what you did wrong, how you can reforge better, positioning, etc.

I really think that's the #1 factor. Anything else is just a subset of this, no one is naturally incapable of playing WoW at a end heroic boss level.

Obviously the high end guilds have rosters full of extremely talented players who have the dedication and have honed these skills over the years, whether consciously or sub-consciously. I say consciously or sub-consciously because you won't find many people out there that want to talk about what I am talking about here. Most people like to pass it off with their egos ("rawr I'm just so good at video games") and having the charity to help others improve can be viewed as a weakness. The ego stroking and elitist jerkism in this game is real, but I'm not bashing it, it's what makes the game fun for some people.

I started raiding in very late ToT, so my experience with this is pretty fresh unlike a lot of posters who have been killing heroic bosses since they were in the womb. In 1.5 tiers, I went from raiding normal ToT (and clearing!)/MSV/TOES in tier 15, to joining a guild that cleared to 11/14H in SoO, to joining a guild that cleared 14/14H. Zero raiding experience before this, and hey look at me 14/14H, it's really not hard.

Most of my improvement was definitely done consciously, doing what I described above. I also liked to have a list of 10-15 general things I needed to work on, and every raid night I would specifically focus on one to two of those. Once I got them down to the point where I did them subconsciously, I'd cross them out and move on. Some examples would be like using Penance on CD when using atonement, Rapture ICD (no LMG at the time), PoM CD, Borrowed Time management, things like that.

- - - Updated - - -

You'd be surprised how many people there are that can't multitask moving out of fire, dispelling X debuff on Y player, and avoiding Z player due to some mechanic at the same time. There are a lot of people who simply cannot process multiple things on the fly.

I just really ascribe that to inexperience + nervousness. They think they can't do it, so it's just a negative feedback loop. It's like someone saying, "Oh no I can't go outside and do yard work, I'll get dirty and it's so hot so I'll get sweaty and..." and then if they actually do it, it's much more difficult than the work actually is because they've mentally told themselves that.

Like the reply said,

Such players probably just have a casual mindset and don't think much about getting better at the game. Or they tell themselves "I'm just not that good."

- - - Updated - - -

If that were true everybody with time and determination in buckets should be world class yet they aren't. Given any thought as to why that is or are you just going to dismiss it?

People that excel at this kind of stuff have a certain basic skillset that is better than that of your average Joe. I'm not sure what cognitive or physical attributes it encompasses but not everyone can do it.

You're not gonna be world class with time and determination. I'm sure there are natural (truly natural) differences between people, but there's a massive difference between world first and clearing the content. Not all 14/14Hs are equal.

Then again, consider that world first players literally put as much time into WoW in preparation for the tier and for progression as a fulltime job. These players have 3-5+ alts that are more geared than 90% of people's mains, and play for literally dozens of hours a week for progression. Maybe time and dedication is really all there is, that and actually grouping up 10-25 players who all have the same time and dedication to WoW.

[Ellger]

Multi tasking - Imo, this is what "skill" in raiding is. It is not a secret that pulling off a rotation is easy, anyone can do it with little practice. It's how well can you use your entire class skill set while at the same dealing with every element given encounter has to offer. Essentially, how well can you use your class while paying attention to present as well as future, how efficiently can you handle those 3 things. This obviously comes first and foremost, without this i doubt you'll ever make a successful hardcore raider.

Handling Burn out - After couple of weeks, Hard Core raiding (8-xx hours 7 days a week) becomes extremely exhausting, it's important how long can you keep going without breaking, and once you do break how well can you perform while broken.

A Cool Head -It's important to stay cool, everyone makes mistakes. On progress both you and your fellow raiders will make them, it's important to stay cool and try and help instead of going all emo . Learn from your own mistakes and don't fall into despair when you eventually screw up, everyone does, it's a part of learning process.

Enjoyment in progress - Wiping for 400-500 times on certain boss can and is very depressing, it's important to kind of reset and enjoy once you reach some progress. To me, it's kinda like fishing, sitting there without anything biting for 10 hours can be extremely depressing and boring, but once you catch something you get all excited and happy, and it all kind of resets and you could go all over again. Kind of a weird "explanation", but that's how hard core raiding is for me. After painfully wiping for countless hours without any real progress, finally reaching a new phase or finding a new strat that brings you closer is super satisfying.

Those are the most important aspects imo, there are more but not as important as those 4.
Wont even mention things like time and dedication, as those are pretty obvious.

Also, OT, Cutting Edge raiding is far more then just looking up some strats on the internet and pulling off a 1-2-3 rotation. Even with all the time in the world, not everyone can do it, and even less can do it perfectly , that's why there are now and there ever ware only a small number of cutting edge guilds.

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

Most of the mentioned above and there is two other things, adaptability and improvisation

[Alroxas]

Most top raiders work and/or go to school. You can absolutely raid at a server first level and maintain everything else in your life. I've been doing it for near a decade. Being able to execute when it's time to execute is another thing most raiders lack. Screwing around after wipes, taking forever to run back, being unprepared with consumables. All that crap adds up.

That really depends on what kind of work/school schedule you have. For instance, during school (college or higher) there's a lot more flexibility in your schedule as you can arrange your classes to have larger chunks of time devoted to a strenuous raid schedule. But let's say your work has you on rotating schedules (i.e. nursing, server at restaurants, on call doctors, on call IT server specialist, etc.), its likely that you can't have a similar strenuous raid schedule.

However, I do agree on execution timing and how people can waste precious time during raid with what you mentioned. One of the worse is staying alive when a wipe is called.

[Deleted]

I agree with most things said but I guess I'd just put most of it in the same category and call it "hard work". I don't believe I have a god given talent at playing video games and I can see younger players in my guild with faster reactions than me as well. But I've worked quite hard to get where I am now. All the things people mentioned are included in that and while some players can just sit down with a new class and master it within a very short time, that is not the situation for me or for many others. Sure I could get a basic grip of a class and out play most LFR people but that's not what I'm talking about.

Then there's also the willingness to sacrifice things outside the game. Racing towards the end boss I doubt any top guilds would think it was cool if their main tank just said "Sorry guys, going to the beach tonight". Discipline is another thing to add. Not everyone can sit in front of their computer and be 100% focused for 5-6 hours during progression for 7 days in a row. Some people can't even stay focused 4 hours in a row but that is also something you can practice imo.

[Deleted]

Keeping a level head is really important, especially in 10 mans. When one person is causing wipes over and over, or even if you are being called out (and you get that horrible sinking feeling), its important that you can bounce back on the next try and not dwell on it.

Min-maxing is also incredibly important in the top end of raiding. Anything that can squeeze out that extra 1% dps - moving in straighter lines, taking shorter paths to avoid things so that you can start dpsing again, looking for all of these shortcuts is what will make you stand out when everyone is already doing the best rotations, with the best gear etc.

[Gandrake]

Well one thing's for sure. I don't like it, and actually despise when someone wants to beat around the bush instead of saying something that needs to be said because they're afraid of upsetting someone in the raid.

If there is something I can immediately do better, I want to know about it. I don't want to spend the next hour not doing it, especially if it is something easy to change. I want to know right away.

But straight up? I don't take shit from anybody. There's a right way to give criticism and yelling at people, disparaging them and treating them like crap is not the right way. There's being frank, or blunt, and then there's just plain being an asshole. If I felt like someone was mistreating me, I'd stop listening to anything they had to say entirely because it would be clear that there is no respect in our relationship.

other than that, spot on

But really, I'm my worst critic. There has never been anyone who is as concerned with my own performance as I am, so it's difficult for me to actually even care when someone is upset with me because I've already beaten them to the punch and their grievance is just an echo of something that's already crossed my mind. There have been times where I guess that people will think that I have let another player like my raid leader disrespect me, but it's just okay because in my head I've already said whatever they're complaining about at least ten times; I'm not worried about them being upset, not worried about losing - I'm focused on winning.