Preliminary WoD stat weights & DK WoD Simcraft updates

[Shiira]

Something close to 300% if I haven't screwed up my napkin maths.

[Jimjam38]

Something close to 300% if I haven't screwed up my napkin maths.

So... maybe by the 2nd tier? :P

[Berri]

How much are people pulling on a ST dummy as unholy at the moment? I'm having some trouble justifying it's (seemingly?) low single-target damage compared to 2H frost.

If anyone has some logs of recent dummy combat as unholy, that would be really helpful.

[incko]

I noticed that Defile was used in the latest sims as lvl100 talent...

is it really the best option we get for single target encounters? What about the other two talents?

[Gurg]

I noticed that Defile was used in the latest sims as lvl100 talent...

is it really the best option we get for single target encounters? What about the other two talents?

If i understood correctly while occasionally reading this topic (a lot of UH and 2H data, to little DW data so i visit it from time to time), UH has good damage boost from Defile with BB spreading diseases all over the place. BoS and NP are kinda undertuned, and with recent changes to frost BoS is not valuable for DW frost as it cost RP, not sure about 2H, but from what i read it MIGHT end up with a good talent choice for PvP paired with RP regeneration runes. NP is simply undertuned with disease not doing enough damage to make it a decent choice.
Also, on Beta i noticed that in some cases NP pulled several mobs that were LoS and out of combat, even so i waited combat to start so i could cast NP. In one of the dungeons i simply had to spec out of NP since i was pulling tons of mobs that ate trough our tank.

As i said, im not quite following this topic cause theres little data about DW, so maybe someone more experienced could reply you more precisely.

[Uspoonybard]

The latest big comprehensive list I put up here still holds true, since there have been no changes. We should be seeing major changes tomorrow so I'll do another one then.

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If i understood correctly while occasionally reading this topic (a lot of UH and 2H data, to little DW data so i visit it from time to time), UH has good damage boost from Defile with BB spreading diseases all over the place. BoS and NP are kinda undertuned, and with recent changes to frost BoS is not valuable for DW frost as it cost RP, not sure about 2H, but from what i read it MIGHT end up with a good talent choice for PvP paired with RP regeneration runes. NP is simply undertuned with disease not doing enough damage to make it a decent choice.
Also, on Beta i noticed that in some cases NP pulled several mobs that were LoS and out of combat, even so i waited combat to start so i could cast NP. In one of the dungeons i simply had to spec out of NP since i was pulling tons of mobs that ate trough our tank.

As i said, im not quite following this topic cause theres little data about DW, so maybe someone more experienced could reply you more precisely.

I've simmed out all possibilities of dw in my comprehensive list as well.

[Waffie]

The latest big comprehensive list I put up here still holds true, since there have been no changes. We should be seeing major changes tomorrow so I'll do another one then.
.

If you could also just do stat weight for unholy/ dw and 2h frost at level 90 I would love you forever, so I can actually play on Ptr and not feel like I'm wasting time guessing stat weights!! Would help a ton!

[psyquest]

If you could also just do stat weight for unholy/ dw and 2h frost at level 90 I would love you forever, so I can actually play on Ptr and not feel like I'm wasting time guessing stat weights!! Would help a ton!

I personnally would like to have the sim for 6.0 to conduct my own tests, if anyone has a link. please please.

[Vereesa]

I personnally would like to have the sim for 6.0 to conduct my own tests, if anyone has a link. please please.

Latest public release of SimC can always be found here.

[Schizoide]

Neat, I thought it was still in SVN requiring me to compile it and didn't want to bother as I'm pretty disillusioned already. But since it's compiled for me, just to emphasize previous results, I ran some sims myself.

First, 2H can still ignore Killing Machine in 6.0. We already knew that, but here it is again. The changes to drastically increase Frost wait time to many players' chagrin had absolutely no effect whatsoever on this. No reason to pool resources. GG there, y'all.

Second, and again, we already knew this, but Plague Leech is absolutely mandatory, both as an incredibly powerful talent (worth 5-7% DPS!) and as it reduces wait times by over 10%. Don't like Plague Leech? Tough. If you don't use it, you're officially a baddie.

Third, while it is still worth doing, AMS soaking is not a big deal in 6.0.

Fourth, echoing Spoony's previous results, haste is immediately devalued below Multistrike and Versatility. 2H won't be stacking haste. This applies at all gear levels, including Normal (same as today's Flex) gear. You will want to prioritize other stats essentially immediately.

Spoony referenced some "big changes" coming in today. Hopefully they change all these conclusions. But realistically, I expect the 5% haste buff for Frost to be reverted and... that's about it.

2H T17H AMS+PLeech: 15% wait time, 27.3k DPS (default T17H profile)
2H T17H AMS+UB: 26% wait time, 25.9k DPS (-5.1% DPS from default)
2H T17H no AMS, +UB: 27.5% wait time, 25.5k DPS (-6.5% DPS from default)

2H T17H default profile ignoring Killing Machine: 15% wait time, 27.3k DPS (0.0% DPS lost from default, ignoring KM)
2H T17H AMS+UB ignoring Killing Machine: 26% wait time, 25.9k DPS (-0% DPS from ignoring KM)

2H T17H Stat Weights -- Heroic is same difficulty as today's Normal mode.
Str > Mult > Vers ~= Haste > Crit > Mastery

4.51 Str
2.19 Multistrike
2.03 Versatility
2.01 Haste
1.66 Crit
1.43 Mastery

2H T17N Stat Weights -- Normal is same difficulty as today's Flex mode.
Str > Mult > Vers > Crit ~= Haste > Mastery

4.30 Str
1.99 Multistrike
1.78 Versatility
1.54 Crit
1.50 Haste
1.33 Mastery

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DW Frost

All conclusions are identical. You can ignore Killing Machine (again, GG!). Plague Leech is absolutely mandatory. Haste is even more devalued, it's actually the worst stat for DW. Same deal, all around.

DW (masterfrost) T17H AMS+PLeech: 13% wait time, 26.3k DPS (default T17H profile)
DW (masterfrost) T17H AMS+UB: 24% wait time, 25.0k DPS (-4.9% DPS)
DW (masterfrost) T17H no AMS, +UB: 28% wait time, 24.0k DPS (-8.7% DPS)

DW (masterfrost) T17H AMS+Pleech ignoring Killing Machine: 13% wait time, 26.1k DPS (-0.7% DPS from ignoring KM)
DW (masterfrost) T17H AMS+UB ignoring Killing Machine: 25% wait time, 24.0k DPS (-0% DPS from ignoring KM)

DW T17H Stat Weights
Str > Mastery > Mult > Vers > Crit ~= Haste

4.59 Str
2.27 Mastery
2.16 Multistrike
1.96 Versatility
1.55 Crit
1.45 Haste

DW T17N Stat Weights
Str > Mastery > Mult > Vers > Haste ~= Crit

4.33 Str
2.03 Mastery
1.88 Multistrike
1.73 Versatility
1.32 Haste
1.31 Crit

[psyquest]

I will be suprised if blizzard dared just remove the haste buff and leave everything as is. they are just redoing completely fury warriors. I just hope that they have the same zeal in addressing our issues.

what are your findings, if any converning UH at 6.0?

[Skarssen]

I'm pretty cynical and bitter at this point, but even I doubt they will allow a spec to have an "attunement" stat as its least valuable.

[Schizoide]

what are your findings, if any converning UH at 6.0?

What did you have in mind? There's not much controversy over Unholy. Bloody Ice on single targets is gone with the FeS buff. Wait times are much more reasonable. It plays similarly to 5.4.

@Skarssen: Yeah, looking forward to those "big changes". But after this beta so far, I'm not optimistic. I would be completely unsurprised if the only change was backing out the 5% haste buff, which I personally still felt was far too little, so backing it out is a step in the exact wrong direction.

[RuneDK]

Schiz,

That is some bad news...I wonder if they will just change the attunement to MS or Mastery. I know it's doubtful but the fact that haste has such a drop off so quickly for both specs is pretty bad..

However the fact that we still don't care about KM and they slowed us down to care about it is pretty hilarious. While it sims as less DPS, the difference is so small that live results will probably end up favoring ignoring KM. It looks like if I pick up WoD I am definitely moving on from my DK. I love unholy and it plays pretty much the same as live now, but I have always preferred frost and the fact that the reasons why they slowed frost down are already being ignored within the first tier(haste scaling and KM meaning something). They obviously have no fucking clue what they want to do with the Frost spec and it has truly shown they have no idea how to scale the spec through this entire beta.

[psyquest]

What did you have in mind? There's not much controversy over Unholy. Bloody Ice on single targets is gone with the FeS buff. Wait times are much more reasonable. It plays similarly to 5.4.

@Skarssen: Yeah, looking forward to those "big changes". But after this beta so far, I'm not optimistic. I would be completely unsurprised if the only change was backing out the 5% haste buff, which I personally still felt was far too little, so backing it out is a step in the exact wrong direction.

for 6.0 at level 90 at least it would look like (please correct me).

all specs: avoid haste

unholy: mastery>Crit>haste

frost 2H: crit > mastery > haste

frost DW: mastery > crit > haste

[Schizoide]

However the fact that we still don't care about KM and they slowed us down to care about it is pretty hilarious. While it sims as less DPS, the difference is so small that live results will probably end up favoring ignoring KM.

It actually sims identically for 2H frost. For DW, the difference is extremely small, well under the margin for human error.

Changing Frost's attunement to Multistrike would actually make sense. Of course the repurcussions from Frost not wanting haste are quite large; they added a dramatic amount of wait time expecting it to drop it later tiers as we stack haste, and we won't be stacking haste. So wait times will remain very high throughout the entire expansion, barring Spoony's "big changes".

[LickMeh]

Just curious, which spec will be on top in 6.0? Currently playing UH myself but I have no clue about the coming changes in 6.0

[Skarssen]

for 6.0 at level 90 at least it would look like (please correct me).

all specs: avoid haste

unholy: mastery>Crit>haste

frost 2H: crit > mastery > haste

frost DW: mastery > crit > haste

While outright removing KM (which will never happen) would be an upfront DPS loss, it would actually significantly improve scaling (particularly crit) for both frost subspecs. LOL.

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Just curious, which spec will be on top in 6.0? Currently playing UH myself but I have no clue about the coming changes in 6.0

Neither does anyone else that doesn't work for Blizzard.

[Schizoide]

@Psyquest: L90 weights sim as follows.

L90 6.0 Unholy T16H
Mult > Str > Mastery ~= Vers > Haste > Crit

6.42 Multistrike
5.81 Str
4.42 Mastery
4.28 Versatility
3.97 Haste
3.41 Crit


L90 6.0 DW Frost T16H -- Yes, mastery seems very low. Don't know why. This is masterfrost priority, but mastery seems like it should be much higher.
Str > Haste ~= Mult > Vers > Mastery > Crit

5.92 Str
5.39 Haste
5.34 Multistrike
4.52 Versatility
3.90 Mastery
3.03 Crit

L90 6.0 2H Frost T16H
Str ~= Mult > Haste ~= Vers > Crit ~= Mastery

5.68 Str
5.54 Multistrike
4.81 Haste
4.66 Versatility
3.27 Crit
3.15 Mastery

@Lickmeh: 2H frost sims the highest, but that doesn't mean much in actual raids. From L100 testing, top spec at L90 will probably be either 2H frost or unholy.

[psyquest]

Just curious, which spec will be on top in 6.0? Currently playing UH myself but I have no clue about the coming changes in 6.0

My tests means nothing since I have been hitting a target dummy. But with a full wfg gear I have been swapping gear around and found that there was a breakpoint in haste for 2H frost where after a certain amount (300 roughly) I did not seem to benefit from more haste.

Unholy plays nicely, by that I mean that the rotation is the original one, however I believe that with 2 adds, blood boil takes over.

side note: considering the stat weight that mean that all specs will go full strenght in gemming.