Orban (Hungarian PM) seeks to end liberal democracy in Hungary

[Deleted]

I'm from Hungary

First of all, Zarc. It's the same election system as what they use in Holland, Austria, Israel and many other countrys. And to bring up a funny example, with the same amount of votes in England(!) they would won the election by 92%(!) So there is no democracy in England, WHAT THE HELL?! Read, learn, think, before you join in a conversation.

Secondly liberal =/= democratic. Just becouse the main stream meedia keep mixing up the two, they won't be equal. It's just a political philosophy, like many others. There are many many failures in it and in my eyes it is just the same extremity on the left side as fascism is on the right side.

Thirdly Vathdar already expained the political situation in my country. There is no authentic left side in Hungary, people got tired of their crimes, curruption, lies and they disillusioned of the whole political philosophy they represent. We don't want a country made by their philosopy, the last 2 election showed this clearly. And that's what the prime minister noticed...

So exactly what changes will happen in Hungary then from being illiberal?

[Vilendor]

So exactly what changes will happen in Hungary then from being illiberal?

Well, that's a good question, nothing concrete was announced so far and even the right sided policy analysts have no idea what's this all about.
The PM mentioned 3 things in his speach (this is missing from the first post):
- He wants better protection and support for hungarian minoritys in other countries (we have ~3 million hungarian people living in the surrounding countries, they got there when 2/3 of Hungary was taken away after WW1)
- He wants to protect the people trapped in foreign currency loans. (This is a huge problem here. Big part of the population had loans before the financial crisis, usually in swiss franc currency. Now they have to pay back 2-4 times the money they loaned, meanwhile many of them lost his job and house)
- He says the previous liberal (socialist-liberal in fact) government wasn't "work-focused" and he wants the people to work for the good of their own countrie and not for foreigners.

That's all he said, we will see what's the plan. Sorry to disapoint the hardcore liberals, but this is not about building concentration camps and executing black people

[Deleted]

Vilendor

He says the previous liberal (socialist-liberal in fact) government wasn't "work-focused" and he wants the people to work for the countrie and not for foreigners. (i have no idea what does this mean)

This sounds like hinting at reforming your benefits system and economic protectionism as well as incentives for people to get to work. Nationalism, in short.

That's all he said, we will see what's the plan. Sorry to disapoint the hardcore liberals, but this is not about building concentration camps and executing black people

Perhaps not, but this surely must concern you:

He listed Russia, Turkey and China as examples of “successful” nations, “none of which is liberal and some of which aren’t even democracies.”

None of those nations have a good record on human rights. Turkey's not awful but China and Russia are abysmal. If the Prime Minister of Britain came out tomorrow with the same statements I'd be really concerned.

[Deleted]

Well, that's a good question, nothing concrete was announced so far and even the right sided policy analysts have no idea what's this all about.
The PM mentioned 3 things in his speach (this is missing from the first post):
- He wants better protection and support for hungarian minoritys in other countries (we have ~3 million hungarian people living in the surrounding countries, they got there when 2/3 of Hungary was taken away after WW1)
- He wants to protect the people trapped in foreign currency loans. (This is a huge problem here. Big part of the population had loans before the financial crisis, usually in swiss franc currency. Now they have to pay back 2-4 times the money they loaned, meanwhile many of them lost his job and house)
- He says the previous liberal (socialist-liberal in fact) government wasn't "work-focused" and he wants the people to work for the good of their own countrie and not for foreigners.

That's all he said, we will see what's the plan. Sorry to disapoint the hardcore liberals, but this is not about building concentration camps and executing black people

- By "better protection and support for hungarian minorities in other countries" you mean passive-aggressive irredentism. This is a myth created by hungarian nationalists that dream of recreating Greater Hungary.
Hungarians are not discriminated in any way. They enjoy all the rights citizens in those countries do, including education in their native language.
- Maybe Romanians/Croats/Serbians/Slovakians/Ukrainians/Whatever should also worry about the Jobbik skinheads from Budapest that rally every year to cause unrest and burn flags in neighboring countries.

And I find it ironic how the current government in Hungary is "concerned" about minorities in other countries but they openly discriminate against Jews and Gypsies.
Do I even have to mention how they glorify nazi war criminals as national heroes?
I'm really curious why the EU has been so silent about the situation in Hungary.

[Vilendor]

None of those nations have a good record on human rights. Turkey's not awful but China and Russia are abysmal. If the Prime Minister of Britain came out tomorrow with the same statements I'd be really concerned.

I think there are many enviable things in those abysmal nations, meanwhile the liberal nations have (sometimes the same) huge problems too. Liberalfascism would be the most fitting word to describe some western nation....

[Deleted]

I think there are many enviable things in those abysmal nations, meanwhile the liberal nations have (sometimes the same) huge problems too.
Liberalfascism would be the most fitting word to describe some western nation....

Well, obviously there are many liberal nations that have big problems, every country does. But a liberal country is always better than a nationalistic and totalitarian state.

[MerinPally]

Yay another political nutter in Europe, just what we needed.

[Deleted]

I think there are many enviable things in those abysmal nations, meanwhile the liberal nations have (sometimes the same) huge problems too. Liberalfascism would be the most fitting word to describe some western nation....

What enviable things exist in those nations?

You also have missed my point. He's admiring nations that have little regard for human rights. They all have, to varying degrees governments that subdue opposition, censor the internet, harass journalists and persecute religious and cultural minorities. If he's admiring them in a general sense then is he thinking of replicating some of that?

That is a question that is inescapable.

[Vilendor]

- By "better protection and support for hungarian minorities in other countries" you mean passive-aggressive irredentism. This is a myth created by hungarian nationalists that dream of recreating Greater Hungary.
Hungarians are not discriminated in any way. They enjoy all the rights citizens in those countries do, including education in their native language.
- Maybe Romanians/Croats/Serbians/Slovakians/Ukrainians/Whatever should also worry about the Jobbik skinheads from Budapest that rally every year to cause unrest and burn flags in neighboring countries.

And I find it ironic how the current government in Hungary is "concerned" about minorities in other countries but they openly discriminate against Jews and Gypsies.
Do I even have to mention how they glorify nazi war criminals as national heroes?
I'm really curious why the EU has been so silent about the situation in Hungary.

First of all thanks for registering a new account just to spill this on me!

Secondly here we go again, a post full with lies about how nationalist/fascist/nazilover/jewhater countrie we are. Good way to kill any conversation, from now on i can say anything your every single answer will be some nazi bashing and how i should feel ashemed. I could bring up tons of atrocity just from the recent past made against hungarian minorities, or i could link articles romanians legally punishing people for using hungarian language, it would mean nothing becouse im not authentic anymore, im a nazi. I could ask you why do you mix up an extreme right party with the government, but you wouldn't answer just throw some more nazi on me. I could tell you about how the government started and finished the biggest Roma (gypsie) catching up program in the history of the EU when Hungary leaded the EU presidency, it would mean nothing. I'm so sorry we are concerned about hungarian minorities, i know it's strange for other nations, they usually don't give a fuck.

And yes, Romanians/Croats/Serbians/Slovakians/Ukrainians/Whatever should worry about the Jobbik, becouse we do worry too! For the love of the god, every fucking sane person should worry if an extreme right (or left) party gets into the parliament. But stop pointing at us all the time when it's happening all over europe, for example in those countries too.

[Deleted]

Yay another political nutter in Europe, just what we needed.

This is more concerning since this is a political nutter not just in Europe, but in the EU. That's what concerns me the most. If it was in like Moldova or Albania I wouldn't have cared as much.

[MerinPally]

This is more concerning since this is a political nutter not just in Europe, but in the EU. That's what concerns me the most. If it was in like Moldova or Albania I wouldn't have cared as much.

Indeed. Don't think anyone would particularly care about Moldova, apart from Cricova producing wine (yes I had to google that) and an old Nazi wine collection there's not a lot there. Not that I want to belittle people living there but in the grand scheme of things, it's really not that important unless it's a major governmental shift towards something extreme. The power they wield is limited.

Interesting history though, that'd warrant protection.

[Vilendor]

What enviable things exist in those nations?

I won't say examples, becouse im already handled like a nazi fascist just thanks to where im from, i didn't even say anything. If i start to bring up examples what fits my conservative centre-right believes i will be torn apart, becouse if you are not liberal you are nazi.

You also have missed my point. He's admiring nations that have little regard for human rights. They all have, to varying degrees governments that subdue opposition, censor the internet, harass journalists and persecute religious and cultural minorities. If he's admiring them in a general sense then is he thinking of replicating some of that?

Well, im not the prime minister, i have no idea if he admires them or not, he just listed them as illiberal nations. And you keep talking about the terrible things of those counties. Do you really think the leader of a democratic nation in the middle of Euore which is part of the EU openly announce his plan to destroy human rights, censor the internet, harass journalists and presecute religious and cultural minorities? Obviously the opposite.

[Deleted]

or i could link articles romanians legally punishing people for using hungarian language

Please do. I'm really curious where you get your daily dose of propaganda from, because there is NO WAY IN HELL that persecution of minorities would be legal in any EU countries.

the biggest Roma (gypsie) catching up program in the history of the EU when Hungary leaded the EU presidency

Clearly. We see its effects around our street corners every day.

And yes, Romanians/Croats/Serbians/Slovakians/Ukrainians/Whatever should worry about the Jobbik, becouse we do worry too! For the love of the god, every fucking sane person should worry if an extreme right (or left) party gets into the parliament. But stop pointing at us all the time when it's happening all over europe, for example in those countries too.

Really?
I had no idea Greece and Hungary constituted all of Europe. Or am I somehow missing an EU country where the far right is a ruling party?

[Deleted]

Indeed. Don't think anyone would particularly care about Moldova, apart from Cricova producing wine (yes I had to google that) and an old Nazi wine collection there's not a lot there. Not that I want to belittle people living there but in the grand scheme of things, it's really not that important unless it's a major governmental shift towards something extreme. The power they wield is limited.

Interesting history though, that'd warrant protection.

Moldova interests me, because even though they're poor they're still European - and have an economy and living conditions compareable to a sub-Saharan nation. I'm more interested in Moldova for the latter, if I've got to be brutally honest.

[Deleted]

I won't say examples, becouse im already handled like a nazi fascist just thanks to where im from, i didn't even say anything. If i start to bring up examples what fits my conservative centre-right believes i will be torn apart, becouse if you are not liberal you are nazi.

I can only assume then that you would be referencing social policies in Russia and China, things that would be abhorrent to us 'liberals'.

Well, im not the prime minister, i have no idea if he admires them or not, he just listed them as illiberal nations.

Therein lies the problem: What he said was shady. You can't be sure what he was referring to.

And you keep talking about the terrible things of those counties. Do you really think the leader of a democratic nation in the middle of Euore which is part of the EU openly announce his plan to destroy human rights, censor the internet, harass journalists and presecute religious and cultural minorities? Obviously the opposite.

Do you think the Russian Government admits to things like that? No. Of course not. Yet they're doing it. No government who institutes restrictions on its citizens actually portrays it as that.

Here's the kicker though, other than their position on human rights and political association what exactly differentiates Russia, China etc from Liberal Nations? I'm deadly serious. There's no real economic difference here. Nations like Russia, China, Belarus, Turkey etc are generally distinguished from Western Liberal nations because of their poor attitude towards social issues - so what is it that you imagine the Hungarian PM was admiring in how they do things?

[Mosotti]

I'm from Romania and that Orban fucker is full of shit. There is no country in the universe that provides more rights to the minorities than the Hungarian minority has here. They have education in their own language, so a lot of them actually can't even speak Romanian. I had a collage fellow who after every long vacation would take me out for beer to relearn how to speak Romanian. Many Romanians don't like this because they think they are doing it on purpose, but really there are places with like 95-98% Hungarians, why the fuck would they talk in other languages? There are road signs in the minority language for every village / city / whatever that has over 20% minority living there. Freedom of religion and whatever the fuck they want. Political representation? Check. Public radio and television shows in their language? Check.

What they truly want is autonomy for a region which is highly populated with Hungarians. Now personally I have nothing against it, but that's not the feeling of most of my fellow Romanians. This is not a very open minded nation, especially in regards with shit like this, especially after what happened in the past with this country. We are kind of like the French in this area, not like Switzerland

Of course, in France there's no zone full of Arabs for example, that don't want to learn the official language and demand autonomy. Even their Spanish prime-minister (lol) is more French than most of the real ones.

But if you go into the zones they demand autonomy for, it's actually like Hungary. Everything is in Hungarian, people are barely speaking Romanian. Some don't want to speak on purpose, and there's a myth that a Romanian can't even buy bread there, because they will pretend to not understand. Well, that's not true. It's even cleaner in those areas, because Romania is a dirty country compared to what a westerner would expect.

[Deleted]

Moldova interests me, because even though they're poor they're still European - and have an economy and living conditions compareable to a sub-Saharan nation. I'm more interested in Moldova for the latter, if I've got to be brutally honest.

That's because it was never meant to be a country in the first place. It's a mostly rural chunk of Romania's Moldovan region that was partitioned to the Soviets by Hitler at the start of WW2.
Their only developed sector is the agricultural one, and even that is lacking.

What they truly want is autonomy for a region which is highly populated with Hungarians. Now personally I have nothing against it, but that's not the feeling of most of my fellow Romanians. This is not a very open minded nation, especially in regards with shit like this, especially after what happened in the past with this country. We are kind of like the French in this area, not like Switzerland

Most of the hungarians in Romania don't care about autonomy that much. It's the ones in Budapest that are the fiercest promoters of such ideas, which is why most Romanians oppose the idea.
It is as plausible as Bavaria breaking away from Germany, but that doesn't stop god ol' Orban from stirring trouble in the region.

[Vilendor]

Text

You forget one thing when you complain about those thing and compare them to the arabs in France. They are living there since centurys and they didn't ask for attaching them to another countrie with different language. By time (sadly from my point of view) they will melt in, just look at the census datas. But don't expect them to give up everything just 94 years after this huge change.

[Puupi]

There is no country in the universe that provides more rights to the minorities than the Hungarian minority has here.

I can guarantee that the Swedish minority in Finland have it better.

[Jackmoves]

I like Hungary, been there several times(my gfs mom is from hungary orginally), but the politics is a right mess, Jobbik being the political party that is the most screwed up. Not good if Orban goes off the edge completely, which seems to be the trend.