Do you actually enjoy the current state of shadow?

[Deleted]

I enjoy everything major about the class except the throughput and only having 3 orbs.

[Dierdre]

If I might throw out these links?

If I could feel bad for warlocks those warlocks would make me feel so bad...

[gry]

The current state is just boring and doesn't really do much dps.. I want my mana battery back!!!!!

Made me switch to my warlock twink.

[Aica]

MFI is superior on protectors. You don't have enough GCDs to use all of your mind spikes, whereas Insanity keeps your GCD usage the same for your filler spells.

I don't understand. Are you saying you have enough GCDs to get perfect Insanity casts off? The whole comparison between FDCL and S&I on this fight is what to use as the minimal filler that exists between main spells. With FDCL, every single filler spell is Mind Spike at 180% of a standard Mind Flay or Mind Sear at 180%+. This means that, with S&I, 80% of your filler spells need to be Insanity casts to be equivalent to FDCL. I don't see how this is possible when S&I requires sets of concurrent GCDs at set intervals while FDCL can just throw them in whenever.

[Aere]

I don't understand. Are you saying you have enough GCDs to get perfect Insanity casts off?

No.
But imperfect Insanity is still >>> FDCL.

[BalkothWarcraft]

I was also calling nonsense on the logs that you linked that suggest shadowpriests are extremely high single target damage

I never claimed that shadow priests were one of the highest single target DPS. In general, we're one of the lowest. I was pointing out that you're not going to suddenly be 100k behind everyone, though.

I know that the difference is not in the grounds of 100k. But linking those logs of sub-par raiders doesn't prove anything. You would've been much better linking dps of classes as a whole, not a very terrible and poor example.

My point was that on H Garrosh Hellscream, which is effectively the highest DPS check in the game at the moment, I was managing to pull 400k+ DPS in p2 and p3 to Garrosh specifically. It was a practical example. Forget everyone else's numbers.

Unless the fellow honestly believes every other class is going to push 500k+ DPS then clearly Spriests aren't as terrible as he thinks. Usually subpar, sure, terrible, no.

[Aere]

My point was that on H Garrosh Hellscream, which is effectively the highest DPS check in the game at the moment, I was managing to pull 400k+ DPS in p2 and p3 to Garrosh specifically. It was a practical example. Forget everyone else's numbers.

Unless the fellow honestly believes every other class is going to push 500k+ DPS then clearly Spriests aren't as terrible as he thinks. Usually subpar, sure, terrible, no.

You can't simply "forget everyone else's numbers" If you're using it as a comparison tool. You give an example of you doing 400k, where the rest of the group is doing considerably less of what they should be doing - it really achieves nothing. You still should've used a better example of medians for the classes in general - not your own personal logs to prove a point - especially when the other people in the log aren't performing close to where they should be. or atleast on the same level as you.

You only need to look at those fury warriors and warlocks to realise that the log wasn't a good example.

[Dierdre]

No.
But imperfect Insanity is still >>> FDCL.

And there's the common misconception.

[Deleted]

To this date I have 44 HC Protectors kills and prolly close to 150 if we count flex, and from testing all the different talent combination insanity is by far the worst. FCDL while not pushing all at the same time and mindbender if you do are the best choices.
Insanity could be decent in perfect world but in reality it's borderline impossible to get good value out of it (unless you play like a scumbag aka eat every corrupted brew and leave sha sears on top of your raid then maybe it can beat fcdl/mindbender).

[Regen]

Yeah, I enjoy playing shadow a lot. I can't dps for shit, but I love it...for instance, my garrosh dps is god awful.

[Aere]

And there's the common misconception.

I really wouldn't say its a misconception. Top 10 ranks on protectors are all insanity besides one which is mindbender. Care to explain why?

[Deleted]

And there's the common misconception.

Then please enlighten us how come 9 out of 10 top us/eu warcraftlogs ranks on 25 man hc Protectors were done with Insanity.

[Aere]

Then please enlighten us how come 9 out of 10 top us/eu warcraftlogs ranks on 25 man hc Protectors were done with Insanity.

And just as an extra addition. The person who used mindbender was given preference on mind searing adds - so I really wouldn't even count that.

So yeh.. I guess mindbender would beat out insanity if you're mindsearing 1/2 the fight.

[Dierdre]

I really wouldn't say its a misconception. Top 10 ranks on protectors are all insanity besides one which is mindbender. Care to explain why?

Proc uptime outliers. In all of those logs MFI accounts for less than 7% of their damage. Heck on some of them it's below 2%. The reason they're ranking is their buffed DoTs, not their filler.

[Aere]

Proc uptime outliers. In all of those logs MFI accounts for less than 7% of their damage. Heck on some of them it's below 2%. The reason they're ranking is their buffed DoTs, not their filler.

Then why aren't there any outlier shadowpriests with FDCL with proc uptimes? If its clearly superior in the way that you suggest than surely they would still trump these current logs?

Edit - no shadowpriest in top 50 on heroic protectors 25man has FDCL.
6 have mindbender - didn't bother looking at breakdowns and I probably should have, but atleast 3 of them have top damage as mindsear. In which case I would probably even consider taking mindbender if i was given scumbag aoe status.

[Dierdre]

Then why aren't there any outlier shadowpriests with FDCL with proc uptimes? If its clearly superior in the way that you suggest than surely they would still trump these current logs?

Because of two reasons:
1. As I said several times by now, the bulk of your damage for that fight comes from your DoTs, not from your filler.
2. The common misconception of MFI being superior on every situation.

Gotta learn to read into those logs. Now, notice how I've never said FDCL is "clearly superior" because truth is (and my original point being) all 3 talents are closer in output than what can normally be accounted from RNG and human error. You can go into the fight with no t45 talent selected and you'll rank if you get a lucky proc streak:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/22mhu...3/?s=506&e=701

I guess mindbender would beat out insanity if you're mindsearing 1/2 the fight.

Which is why it's a better choice for immerseus unless you have 4 locks burning stuff. The bulk of your damage for immerseus will come from searing, and you can have mindbender do his thing while you do yours.

[Elestia]

2. Highly Gear dependant

Agree with this. The most annoying part of shadow for me is the high gear requirement to do decent damage. I'm an experienced caster dps... I can execute perfect rotations with my shadow alt... but he's an alt, and the gear is not perfectly optimized-a mix of lfr, timeless isle, etc. He does shit for damage, so it's only 'fun' to play to a point.

As for survive-ability, I personally find them easy. Drop a fiend and fade (or take the talent), to reset threat. Or Disperse and take massive damage, then fade. Or if its moderate damage PW:S and renew yourself... or vamp embrace... Compare their survive-ability to say a mage, your uptime is much much better.

[soulyouth]

Gotta learn to read into those logs. Now, notice how I've never said FDCL is "clearly superior" because truth is (and my original point being) all 3 talents are closer in output than what can normally be accounted from RNG and human error. You can go into the fight with no t45 talent selected and you'll rank if you get a lucky proc streak:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/22mhu...3/?s=506&e=701

[Aere]

Because of two reasons:
1. As I said several times by now, the bulk of your damage for that fight comes from your DoTs, not from your filler.
2. The common misconception of MFI being superior on every situation.

Gotta learn to read into those logs. Now, notice how I've never said FDCL is "clearly superior" because truth is (and my original point being) all 3 talents are closer in output than what can normally be accounted from RNG and human error. You can go into the fight with no t45 talent selected and you'll rank if you get a lucky proc streak:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/22mhu...3/?s=506&e=701

what are you even talking about? the logs you linked has the priest having insanity. ranked 70th on world of logs which is no longer being supported and comparatively would be have been 86th on warcraft logs.

If you'd like to see the correct uptimes on trinkets: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...auras&source=2

If you would also like to comprehend the logs a little bit better you would also see that the top damage is mindsear - 9/10 of the top logs don't have that. It could be due to an absence of black blood procs or procs in which your mind searing.

The point is - if FDCL was superior on this fight you would see atleast one shadowpriest in top 50 with FDCL with worse trinket procs than one using insanity and being higher on the damage meter. Unfortunately - l don't have the patience to look through numerous logs to find the shadowpriest who has FDCL on that fight. It might be interesting to know - if you find one.

[Dierdre]

The most annoying part of shadow for me is the high gear requirement to do decent damage.

As someone already pointed out, gear won't help you. You'll still be subpar (but viable) vs equally geared and skilled players no matter how high your gear is, even more at higher ilvls.

- - - Updated - - -

what are you even talking about? the logs you linked has the priest having insanity. ranked 70th on world of logs which is no longer being supported and comparatively would be have been 86th on warcraft logs.

That's #3 rank on US/EU 25H WoL, the priest does have insanity and it accounts for less than 1% of his damage.