Do we have free will?

[tankbug]

I don't even understand the concept of free will, I think. We're always influenced by something.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

You're free to go against the "rules" or "norms" of society and the people you surround yourself with, if you do so however you risk being ridiculed-a among other things- and punished for doing so.
Yes you're free to do whatever the fuck pleases you but beware that we're animals and anyone that sticks out in the crowd is prone to a lot of BS treatment, ofc you can avoid that by living in the mountains and only surround yourself with smarter animals.

[Gheld]

Yes - because the world is not deterministic, that is why there is value experiencing life. Not because of any supposed free will.

I'm not sure, but I think you've retreated to arguing that there is no free will because people will always make what they perceive to be the best possible choice in a situation? And that's just ridiculous.

[schwarzkopf]

This is a surprisingly terrible "experiment".

"Simple" experiment meant to demonstrate a principle. The real experiments are somewhat more difficult to perform in an audience.

Most people consciously picked super famous cities? SHOCKER!!! More at 11...

That's exactly the point - even though the audience member was very familiar with Cairo, it wasn't a city that his sub conscious gave him the option of choosing.

You EXACTLY make my point.

[Adam Jensen]

No, because in any given situation we will, according to our personalities, always make the same choice. If that situation comes up again, in EXACTLY the same way, we'll make the same choice again. However, there are many variables that consciously and unconsciously affect our decisions so it appears like we have free will, like we'd respond in different ways, but I think we all will make the same decisions every time given that every factor is the same.

So we don't really have free will given that our personalities and current knowledge will always lead us to the same decision.

[Deleted]

That's exactly the point - even though the audience member was very familiar with Cairo, it wasn't a city that his sub conscious gave him the option of choosing.

You EXACTLY make my point.

How do you know it wasn't an option?

[Pull My Finger]

Free will involves us having a conscious say over what we decided, science and multiple experiments have shown that our so called 'free' decisions are made unconsciously up to 7 seconds before we consciously 'make the decision'.

That's just a confusion of definitions. Consciousness is like an A/D-converter. It physically has to take a tiny amount of time to translate data, even if the time frame is so minscule that it's completely negligible in the human perception of things. Look at it this way: how can you know what you're saying if you're not saying it to be able to listen to yourself? Same goes for will. In terms of the structural model of the psyche: the id first has to make a decision before ego can register it after a short delay. Still, id is as much you as ego is, id is just deeper level.

If you only define the two upper levels of your personality as yourself, then I guess you could argue that you don't even have a will of your own. But that's more a question of definition than science.

[Mayhem]

I see the 2 latter as the same. Theory is not experience nor is second hand observance.

still perceiving, observing something also influences a person

[Underverse]

Yes - because the world is not deterministic, that is why there is value experiencing life. Not because of any supposed free will.

I don't think you understood what I wrote. The value is in the experience, regardless of whether or not it is determined. Hence the powerful book analogy.

[schwarzkopf]

I'm not sure, but I think you've retreated to arguing that there is no free will because people will always make what they perceive to be the best possible choice in a situation? And that's just ridiculous.

No - I'm arguing (well Sam Harris is - as he is the expert), that there is no free will because the decisions are made at a sub-conscious level.

That is - decision making in the brain is like red-blood cell making in the bone marrow - automatic functions.

[Granyala]

This is a surprisingly terrible "experiment". I don't even know where to begin with this, but I'm mostly shocked people made any sort of worthwhile observation from this. Most people consciously picked super famous cities? SHOCKER!!! More at 11...

Maybe it's because my brain is snarky as poo, but when I read "well under 10 possibilities", I had to think of like 50 examples.

I think the experiment is BS too. If there had been an Egyptian in the audience, Cairo very well would have been on his list.
To conclude from "I didn't think about City X" that there is no free will to choose City X is rather absurd.

However our brain does filter a lot of data. It's an interesting question how selective perception and incomplete sets of data influence our decision making process.

[Deleted]

still perceiving, observing something also influences a person

Yes, but they are in many cases misguided/misinformed/lacking depth of knowledge, because they don't understand the experience.

[schwarzkopf]

I don't think you understood what I wrote.

I did - and you are 100% absolutely still talking determinism. Which I have no argument is not the case.

[Underverse]

I don't even understand the concept of free will, I think. We're always influenced by something.

This succinctly sums up the third-degree lack of free will (base determinism - biological determinism - social/environmental determinism). There really is no way out of it.

[Mayhem]

How do you know it wasn't an option?

because he hasn´t thought of cairo

[Ghul]

doesnt really matter to me. what happens, happens. just dont use this science to make murders look like predestined happenings, that would be really stupid :>

[schwarzkopf]

I think the experiment is BS too. If there had been an Egyptian in the audience, Cairo very well would have been on his list.
To conclude from "I didn't think about City X" that there is no free will to choose City X is rather absurd.

That is exactly my point... we are asked to choose ANY city in the world, against our free will to choose ANY city - our subconscious removes many known options ... and leaves us with effectively no real choice at all.

[Deleted]

because he hasn´t thought of cairo

Given time anyone would think of Cairo, if they know about the city.

[schwarzkopf]

doesnt really matter to me. what happens, happens. just dont use this science to make murders look like predestined happenings, that would be really stupid :>

Again - you are confusing determinism with lack of free will. As a matter of fact - realising we don't have free will allows us to take certain actions to stop otherwise likely things from happening.

- - - Updated - - -

Given time anyone would think of Cairo, if they know about the city.

Yes - but the point is - when asked to think of ANY city, you might know the names of 500 or 600 cities - but only be allowed (by your subconscious) to choose from 4 or 5.

[Mayhem]

Yes, but they are in many cases misguided/misinformed/lacking depth of knowledge, because they don't understand the experience.

that is true as well, but that wasn´t the point

the initial argument was, you can´t form an opinion without experience, the depth of experience gives more weight to your opinion, but without any experience you can´t form an opinion

the easiest way to prove this:

form an opinion about a topic you haven´t heard of