[7.3] Azortharion's Hunter Guides

[rickhunterr]

Actually, you came in here and right off the bat said that Azor's sims were wrong and that LW was better. Don't come in to a discussion thread a state that it's wrong.

From my own personal testing I find that FS is much better than LW on every fight but Tectus, about 3k better. Doesn't take that much skill to use right.

Ummm no I didn't I came in and ask if they were simmed as Patchwerk, and why they were since the fights obviously have movement. From my own personal testing LW comes out better than FS on every fight but butcher, it doesn't take that much skill to use Lone Wolf right. But that is neither here nor there. How an individual plays a talent better or worse is irrelevant. I'm talking about the simmulated results that are used for baseline comparisons. How are the sims of patchwerk style fights more valid than the sims of movement fights? If movement sims say LW is better, but patchwerk says FS is better, which is more correct? The answer that some say is "well you can plan out your movement and shots", and to me that translates to delaying shot or focus capping, which is what you see in the movement sims, which put the FS below LW.

[minigun]

Ummm no I didn't I came in and ask if they were simmed as Patchwerk, and why they were since the fights obviously have movement. From my own personal testing LW comes out better than FS on every fight but butcher, it doesn't take that much skill to use Lone Wolf right. But that is neither here nor there. How an individual plays a talent better or worse is irrelevant. I'm talking about the simmulated results that are used for baseline comparisons. How are the sims of patchwerk style fights more valid than the sims of movement fights? If movement sims say LW is better, but patchwerk says FS is better, which is more correct? The answer that some say is "well you can plan out your movement and shots", and to me that translates to delaying shot or focus capping, which is what you see in the movement sims, which put the FS below LW.

The problem is that Azor is seen as a figure of authority, thus in their eyes you are already seen as wrong. Your argument isn't relevant to them.

I tried to make a similar argument about using Barrage single target in correlation with LW, but it was pointless. A sim showed a 0.3% dps gain under ideal situations, so of course that means it's best! There is no reason to even consider the other dozen variables, all of which could negatively impact the 'gain'. Nope, just assume the best case scenario EVERY time!

[Thaliah]

Ummm no I didn't I came in and ask if they were simmed as Patchwerk, and why they were since the fights obviously have movement. From my own personal testing LW comes out better than FS on every fight but butcher, it doesn't take that much skill to use Lone Wolf right. But that is neither here nor there. How an individual plays a talent better or worse is irrelevant. I'm talking about the simmulated results that are used for baseline comparisons. How are the sims of patchwerk style fights more valid than the sims of movement fights? If movement sims say LW is better, but patchwerk says FS is better, which is more correct? The answer that some say is "well you can plan out your movement and shots", and to me that translates to delaying shot or focus capping, which is what you see in the movement sims, which put the FS below LW.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge there's no such thing as "movement sims". All sims are Patchwerk, that's just how the work.

minigun, you can't argue with many, many people who use FS and are seeing good results. If somebody can't play with a certain talent because they just can't deal with the way it works, fine, but that doesn't mean they can start debating whether it's even usable.

[minigun]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge there's no such thing as "movement sims". All sims are Patchwerk, that's just how the work.

minigun, you can't argue with many, many people who use FS and are seeing good results. If somebody can't play with a certain talent because they just can't deal with the way it works, fine, but that doesn't mean they can start debating whether it's even usable.

Many, many people is just anecdotal evidence. The sample size of this forum is way too small, and it's clearly biased as well.

Sims are merely a tool, not holy texts! You have to use your brain and make judgement calls. Another important tool to help with those calls are the logs.

Azor just said everyone at endgame sucks, and that's why the logs aren't reflective of FS's superiority! Of course it got deleted... But I have seen him say that on other occasions as well.

[Deleted]

What's important to keep in mind when making talent and spec decisions, when all the choices are this close, is not to take sim results as gospel.

Simulations are currently our most reliable way to see what would be the best choice in an optimal environment played by a robot, however sims are not perfect. They are only as accurate as the programming behind them. They have bugs and oversights, so you can never be certain that what it spits out in the end, is what is actually reflected in the real game.

Instead of using it like an instruction manual, you should use it as a tool to get a better understanding of how your abilities and talents interact with each other, and how each of these affect your damage. The actual decisions you make about which talent and spec to play on progression bosses have to take other factors into account. What are you comfortable playing? Which choices could give an advantage due to X or Y boss mechanics? What choices can I make that will give me consistently high results, rather than only when stars align? What specs have other hunters been successful with on this fight?

These are all questions you should ask, and which should influence your decision just as much as simulationcraft results. If you follow them blindly, you might end up making a bad choice because of a error in programming. Oops, focusing shot is not restoring focus to pets? Programming error, and suddenly what is "best" changes in the sim. But it was always the same in the game, but you might not have noticed because you never tried something else.

Experiment for yourself, and there is plenty of time to do that when progressing on mythic bosses where you can do 30-50 pulls on the same boss in a night. Switch it up every few tries, see what you get better results with. Discuss with your other hunters. Try different things between you and compare your performances and experiences. This is the most effective way to ultimately figure out what spec and talent loadout to play, not looking at a patchwerk simcraft output list and blindly copying whatever it lists at the top.

[rickhunterr]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge there's no such thing as "movement sims". All sims are Patchwerk, that's just how the work.

minigun, you can't argue with many, many people who use FS and are seeing good results. If somebody can't play with a certain talent because they just can't deal with the way it works, fine, but that doesn't mean they can start debating whether it's even usable.

Actually simcraft has options for light movement, heavy movement, add cleave, stuns, and helterskelter (movement, stuns, and interrupts)

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Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the work Azor does for the community with this guide. But I think sometimes the information is unfairly weight towards stand still fights, for example when simming the stat weights in SoO if you simmed it under Patchwerk you got very different results if you simmed under movement, and the simmed under movement were the same stats weights Azor used for his stat weights. Even though all the simmed damage numbers were done under patchwerk fights. I'm just saying if you simmed the fights under movement you get very different suggestions for talent choices. Enough of a difference that its statistically significant to look at why there are differences and what those differences mean about talent choices. But with a guide saying this talent choice is the only talent choice "IF YOU PLAY WELL", is neither beneficial or constructive for the community.

[jpthepope]

But with a guide saying this talent choice is the only talent choice "IF YOU PLAY WELL", is neither beneficial or constructive for the community.

I do believe skill is involved in talents, and if you read my lil mini sv guide it would say it too. Skill is always a factor of what you as a person should choose. if i never played feral and was told to dps on it for some crazy reason i would probably choose the most passive talents in order for me to have the simplest rotation i could, while still being pretty effective, but the more i played it the more I would choose the better talents as i practiced more and more and got better at knowing kitty . Focusing shot takes away some utility of movement but it can be negated by player skill. Just my food for thought on that one bud

[Aldarana]

But with a guide saying this talent choice is the only talent choice "IF YOU PLAY WELL", is neither beneficial or constructive for the community.

What are you looking for instead? You've acknowledged that FS is better dps if you can manage to play it. You'd like for Azor to put up the sims with movement, say that LW is better and leave it at that? Or put up sims that show LW>FS and then add in "ignore the sims if you can play FS well its better than LW"? What's constructive for the community? Having someone try and guess the skill level of the average reader and make the best recommendation for the play style/skill level or what ever you wanna call it of the reader? Persaonly I'd rather it just be what the absolute best is because I want to play what will give the best possible performance and if I can't I have the ability to play something else.

Or are you still having the argument that with any movement at all FS becomes unusable because you can't possibly play with it without spending large parts of the fight casting nothing or focus capped and that adding movement to a sim is somehow reflective of how a real player plays in a real fight?

Can you clarify what you think a little bit more? Are you saying that FS is only ever slightly better than LW? That its only slightly better on a movement fight when played correctly?

[Dracodraco]

Can you clarify what you think a little bit more? Are you saying that FS is only ever slightly better than LW? That its only slightly better on a movement fight when played correctly?

This probably hits the nail on the head. The difference between FS and LW is around 3.3%, as mentioned earlier. Thrill rng can swing your dps up and down by 1.5-2% quite easily, and general movement / slips probably knocks LW down to a 2, 2.5% difference from FS. Is FS stronger? Yes. Is it harder to play? Yes. Would I recommend it for progress on any boss but butcher? Abso-fucking-lutely not. Are you going to see a major increase from switching talents? Not at all, and you won't even notice much of a difference unless you get +90th percentile output on a consistent (weekly) basis. If you do, that's more likely to be attributed to better procs, or luck, than the talent change Heck, probably even +95th, now that our trinket choises lets us get consistent buffs rather than the RPPM hell in SoO.

But on a general basis, if you play FS perfectly, you're going to average 3% dps more than if you play Lone wolf perfectly. It's that simple. Doesn't mean jack that you do 25K as LW one week, and 24K with FS the next, because one week you might do 22.5K as LW and surprise surprise, it's evened out in favor of FS. RNG is a fickle bitch, which is why low amount of logs can't be used for anything. Sims can, because they mirror a log.

[Jayjayhey]

so just a confirmation:

Skull of war (tier 3) > LDSC as SV?

would like some confirmation before I buy wrong trinket..

[rickhunterr]

What are you looking for instead? You've acknowledged that FS is better dps if you can manage to play it. You'd like for Azor to put up the sims with movement, say that LW is better and leave it at that? Or put up sims that show LW>FS and then add in "ignore the sims if you can play FS well its better than LW"? What's constructive for the community? Having someone try and guess the skill level of the average reader and make the best recommendation for the play style/skill level or what ever you wanna call it of the reader? Persaonly I'd rather it just be what the absolute best is because I want to play what will give the best possible performance and if I can't I have the ability to play something else.

Or are you still having the argument that with any movement at all FS becomes unusable because you can't possibly play with it without spending large parts of the fight casting nothing or focus capped and that adding movement to a sim is somehow reflective of how a real player plays in a real fight?

Can you clarify what you think a little bit more? Are you saying that FS is only ever slightly better than LW? That its only slightly better on a movement fight when played correctly?

I've never said FS was unusable or unplayable, only that its not as far ahead of LW as the patchwerk sims seem to suggest. And yes it is only slightly (around 1% 300dps ) better than LW on slight movement sims, and that is if you played both talents, absolutely computer perfectly. And since 99.99% of the people who play this game won't suggesting it as the best spec is silly. Odds are that the player would play better with LW and do higher dps than if they played with FS. And actually showing the sims that show how close both specs are under slight movement would be more constructive for the community. And under heavy movement LW is about 1.2k above FS hands down, about the same difference that FS is above LW in the patchwerk sims.

[Aldarana]

would like some confirmation before I buy wrong trinket..

From the OP

SV:

So as you can see Skull of War 3/3 is better than LDSC for SV, not so much for the other specs.

[Jayjayhey]

right, but is that just based off a simple sim or overall data including AOE etc on all accounts?

[Thaliah]

right, but is that just based off a simple sim or overall data including AOE etc on all accounts?

Those sims are for single target only, but between SoW 3/3 and LDSC the difference is so small, it won't matter much. Just off the top of my head SoW would be better against 2+ targets, but don't quote me on that.

[Invrlose]

But they generally have spells they can cast while on the move.

You can't really compare the 2.

No, this isn't MOP. A lot of casters have nothing that they can cast on the move

[Jayjayhey]

Those sims are for single target only, but between SoW 3/3 and LDSC the difference is so small, it won't matter much. Just off the top of my head SoW would be better against 2+ targets, but don't quote me on that.

Then those sims should be taken beyond lightly. AOE is huge in highmaul. If the difference is bigger in AOE, we need to know, it will matter much. SoW 3/3 is much less expensive than LDSC on my server. I don't want to buy SoW 3/3 and realize later LDSC is better because I'm "just following sims"

[Deleted]

do sims yourself O.o

[Thaliah]

Then those sims should be taken beyond lightly. AOE is huge in highmaul. If the difference is bigger in AOE, we need to know, it will matter much. SoW 3/3 is much less expensive than LDSC on my server. I don't want to buy SoW 3/3 and realize later LDSC is better because I'm "just following sims"

Assuming you're running SV on Kargath, Butcher, Twins and Ko'ragh, the only major AoE you're dealing with is the adds on Ko'ragh. Either way the difference will be minimal; is SoW is much cheaper, get SoW. If you're looking to be using MM on Brack and Imp, or BM on Tectus, get LDSC.

Edit: I forgot AoE on Kargath stands, but really, you only send a hunter up there for Barrage pulling.

[Aldarana]

I've never said FS was unusable or unplayable, only that its not as far ahead of LW as the patchwerk sims seem to suggest. And yes it is only slightly (around 1% 300dps ) better than LW on slight movement sims, and that is if you played both talents, absolutely computer perfectly. And since 99.99% of the people who play this game won't suggesting it as the best spec is silly. Odds are that the player would play better with LW and do higher dps than if they played with FS. And actually showing the sims that show how close both specs are under slight movement would be more constructive for the community. And under heavy movement LW is about 1.2k above FS hands down, about the same difference that FS is above LW in the patchwerk sims.

The problem with that is the nature of sims themselves. Patchwerk single target no movement is considered a poor representation of a real fight only partly because real fights have movement. Other things such as add spawns and down time also play huge parts in why a patchwerk sim isn't a good model of a real fight. So everyone can acknowledge that patchwerk isn't a completely accurate representation of a real fight. A movement sim is also bad a modeling a real fight with real movement. The way a movement sim works, this is to the best of my knowledge, is it forces the simulated player to move for X seconds every Y seconds. Which isn't at all how a real fight works, the length of time you have to move is different and the amount of time between each movement is different. There is no fight in Highmaul set up that that there is an equal amount of time between movements that last for the same amount of time. That's just how sim movement itself in inaccurate. You can then look at how poorly the sim models player behavior during movement.

From Azor's APL:

actions+=/a_murder_of_crows
actions+=/black_arrow,if=!ticking
actions+=/explosive_shot
actions+=/arcane_shot,if=buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&focus>35&cast_regen<=focus.deficit|dot.serpent_sting.remains<=3|target.time_to_die<4.5
actions+=/explosive_trap
actions+=/barrage
actions+=/arcane_shot
actions+=/focusing_shot

I removed some parts so that you can see what the sim does if you have TotH/AMoC/Barr/FS

So then we can compare what a sim would do on a movement fight vs. a player. Lets say that you have 40 focus BA is 10sec from coming off CD, ES is 6 seconds ET is 4, and Crows is 30+ seconds out. You're going to have to move in 2 seconds for say 4 seconds.
The sim:
Casts AS
Begins casting FS and then has to move
Casts ET while moving
Stops moving and casts ES
Casts FS

The sim just had 3 globals where it didn't cast anything and wasted time casting the first FS.

A real player:
Casts FS
Begins moving and casts AS
Casts AS
Casts ET
Casts AS
Is out of focus for AS and has 1 sec left on ES
Stops moving and casts ES
Casts FS

The real player lost 1 global which with a TotH proc could have been made up although with the same thrill proc the sim also would have gotten off an extra AS. This is the problem when trying to model movement in a sim. There's nothing you could change to make the sim preform more like a player because the ability to plan for movement as part of the action list just isn't part of SimC.

Honestly the sim is pretty stupid compared to a real player. People tend to have the misconception that a sim is perfect and can out play any real player when they really can't. Then the question is whether a non-movement or movement sim is more representative of a real fight. Personally I think that a player will preform closer to a non-movement sim on a movement fight than a movement sim against a real player on a movement fight.

As far as your argument that the average player can't play well enough to see the 1% gain and there for the talent shouldn't be recommended I'm going to flat out disagree. Even assuming that the gain is only 1% (neither of us have prof one way or the other) saying that most people can't play well enough to see that 1% so it shouldn't be mentioned is, in my opinion, silly. It's harder sure but not impossibly hard to the point where only the absolute best players can do it. I think is fair to say that even just an average player could easily out play the sim on a movement fight, maybe I'm overestimating the average here. This argument however isn't about the numbers really at all. This is more about how the guide should be written, either its a guide to the absolute best possible information for a player able to play to the highest required skill or about recommending what the average player of average skill will get the best results with. Since its Azor's guide that's his choice to make though I'm sure he's willing to add in a note to let people know that a talent like FS requires more work to see dps gain shown in the sims.

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Then those sims should be taken beyond lightly. AOE is huge in highmaul. If the difference is bigger in AOE, we need to know, it will matter much. SoW 3/3 is much less expensive than LDSC on my server. I don't want to buy SoW 3/3 and realize later LDSC is better because I'm "just following sims"

Honestly they're so close that even a small error in sims, like AS multisrikes not giving the extra SrS tick, could put one above the other. Both trinkets are likely to stay very close together for SV. My advice if you can only get one is to just get the LDSC as there are some fights were you'll play MM on progression and LDSC is much better that a 670 SoW for MM.

[yakuz]

one question: how the hell is LW with STAMPEDE first in sims if u cant use pets with LW?