[7.3] Azortharion's Hunter Guides

[Deleted]

Is there anu different between exotic pets? I got the corehound

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As hunter do you play with DBM when u know what to do in every boss? I find the addon rly annoying

[Menubrea]

Is there anu different between exotic pets? I got the corehound

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As hunter do you play with DBM when u know what to do in every boss? I find the addon rly annoying

DPS wise? No, but I like to get a Spirit Beast for my go-to raiding pet for the free heal available every 30 seconds.

[Deleted]

DPS wise? No, but I like to get a Spirit Beast for my go-to raiding pet for the free heal available every 30 seconds.

So spirit beast has the same dmg than corehound + heal?

[Menubrea]

So spirit beast has the same dmg than corehound + heal?

Yes.

Core Hounds special ability is Ancient Hysteria (Bloodlust), I believe.

[Finbezz]

Yep, all pets are the same except the buff/ability they have. For example, a crocolisk(unless it was changed in WoD) has a slow while most pets have buffs. Only exception is the exotic pets that BM uses. Those either bring can bring anywhere brings multiple buffs and abilities. Spirit Beast is the best overall imo if your raid isn't missing buffs since it's a(effectively) free heal every 30s that heals for something around 80-100k(in 688 gear that is).

[Deleted]

I tried to look further into the basic pet attack issue, comparing the simulated intervals to actual logs.
I took the recent BM sims from Azortharion (http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/Azortharion/) as well as the 'official' ones on http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html as a base since they're easy to access and probably what a lot of people a going by for now.
Azor (7,5k iterations):
Single target (1135 Haste) - 2,76s Claw / 17,5s Enhanced Basic Attacks proc intervals
3 Targets (1135 Haste) - 2,76s Claw / 17,7 EBA

http://simulationcraft.org/ (10k iterations):
Single Target (319 Haste) - 2,79s Claw / 17,8s EBA
3 target sim uses 680 ilvl and TotH over SF here for some reason - 3,05s Claw / 19,0s EBA

As long as talent choices stay the same, how many targets you face doesn't really have any effect on the intervals between basic attack executions (as pet focus regen remains unchanged). This seems obvious, but including two of the multitarget sims didn't seem to hurt either, especially since the number of iterations for the single target sims isn't all that high.
Losing out on the extra regeneration from SF apparently increases the intervals by quite a bit for the TotH multitarget sim, not much more of interest to gain from that one for this matter.
The single target sims both use full 695 gear with 4p and BHotM+MDT as their trinkets; Azortharions Haste-heavy profile does get slightly closer intervals inbetween Claws, some of this might still be down to variance though and the difference for 1000 more Haste is still pretty minimal. On the other hand, the Mastery-heavy simulation gets about 150k more damage out of Stampede per execution (just mentioning this in relation to what I said in some of my previous posts concerning the general stat priorities for BM depending on what you actually need, e.g. burst).

Now, what I really wanted to examine though is a comparison between the simulated intervals and the intervals observed in actual logs.
Gruul appears to be the most practical encounter for that, since that's the only BRF boss where you can pretty much guarantee that logs will have 100% pet uptime without any target switches.
I'll also note down (roughly) the Haste values the players are having in their armory profiles and assume that those are roughly equal to what they had on the respective kill, this won't always be correct of course. Other than that, I'll just divide the time of the kill by the number of basic attacks executed by the pet (this will include both 'regular' basic attacks as well as those accelerated by Enhanced Basic Attacks):

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=13
~1000 Haste, SF - 2,86s Claw intervals

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=3
no armory, DB - 3,15s

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=11
~500 Haste, SF - 3,14s

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
~900 Haste, SF - 3,44s
~1100 Haste, SF - 3,37s

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=22
~1100 Haste, DB - 3,17s

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=55
~500 Haste, SF - 3,05s

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=8
~600 Haste, SF - 3,08s

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=19
~1000 Haste, DB - 3,19s

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=16
~1100 Haste, SF - 3,03s

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=4
~1100 Haste, SF - 2,97s

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=19
~500 Haste, SF - 3,02s

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=17
~800 Haste, SF - 2,99s

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=5
~1200 Haste, DB - 3,06s

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=8
~1400 Haste, SF - 2,99s
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So, this is the top 15 BM logs for Gruul as of now. Not all of these are running full Haste gems/enchants, have the Dragonspine Trophy or use SF.
The sims both assumed about 85% uptime on SF which none of the actual logs managed to reach. However, it's the first boss in the first week of really playing BM for most I'd assume, so we might see improvements in the coming IDs. Several players are close to or just above 80% at least, others quite a bit lower.

It's quite striking that only the very first of these logs comes anywhere close to the sims regarding basic attack intervals, and even that one is still quite a bit off. And that's with these being the best logs for now. Of course there are tons of other rng factors (trinket procs, tier set resets etc.) as well as player skill involved for getting a high parse, but I think it's safe to assume that among 15 decent logs, at least some of these would've had more EBA procs than what is averaged in the simulations.

So unless I'm missing something, the BM simulations will be off by quite a bit just because of the extra 0,2-0,3s delay between basic attacks that does not seem to be accounted for. This occurs largely (or completely) independent of player latency and would not only affect the basic attack damage/frequency itself, but in turn also the frequency of EBA procs as well as Frenzy stacks and consequently FF uptime.
For SV, this would've been much less of an issue because the "extra" focus caused by delay will eventually just be funneled into an empowered basic attack and there's no mechanics involved besides raw damage.

Would be great if people who are more experienced with simcraft could weigh in on this. Might put another damper on the initial BM hype.
Might also mean that Haste is valued slightly higher than it should be, since the sims could be calculating the extra focus regeneration to get some basic attacks to be cast more quickly (e.g. at 3,05 instead of 3,15s after the last), when in reality it wouldn't be cast anyway before ~3,25s have passed, even with full focus.

[Deleted]

Yep, all pets are the same except the buff/ability they have. For example, a crocolisk(unless it was changed in WoD) has a slow while most pets have buffs. Only exception is the exotic pets that BM uses. Those either bring can bring anywhere brings multiple buffs and abilities. Spirit Beast is the best overall imo if your raid isn't missing buffs since it's a(effectively) free heal every 30s that heals for something around 80-100k(in 688 gear that is).

Thanks you! . I'm going to tame Loque right now

[ykza]

Would be great if people who are more experienced with simcraft could weigh in on this. Might put another damper on the initial BM hype.
Might also mean that Haste is valued slightly higher than it should be, since the sims could be calculating the extra focus regeneration to get some basic attacks to be cast more quickly (e.g. at 3,05 instead of 3,15s after the last), when in reality it wouldn't be cast anyway before ~3,25s have passed, even with full focus.

Or maybe pet basic attacks and FF uptime isn't all our rotation is about?
Have you played IM? Cause if you have and you have looked at sims, you know that keeping bleastcleave up is the most important thing, followed by keeping barrage on CD and using as many KC as possible. Thing is, the focus return from cobras isn't that high so usually getting 1-2 KC per Barrage is what usually happens. That means we are keeping all that big dick aoe up but we're missing out on 2pc procs. And do you know what haste does? Haste reduces Cobra's cast time and gives us more passive regen, (together with increased attack speed, etc). Which means more focus to dump with KC, also makes the rotation more forgiving. It also means more 2pc procs which once again make the rotation easier and give you lots more damage.
Have you noticed how much easier the fight becomes when you do have FF up? And the extra focus translates into more KC -> More procs. So yes, I'll take haste over the other stats and I dont think it is overvalued. It gives you more damage, it makes your rotation easier and more forgiving. I know I'm not a robot, and especially while perfecting a new spec, I'll make mistakes. Haste will help those mistakes have less impact while still giving alot of dps , even if theoretically less.

[Kwaai]

Thanks you! . I'm going to tame Loque right now

See you in a few weeks.

[Deleted]

I noticed in the docs one of the WA being 'BW focus starved' with 4th trigger being player focus <14.
BW doesn't regen player focus, it regens pet focus - shouldn't it be pet focus <25? Or is this added for the added benefit of the extra haste received from each stack? (and therefore increasing your focus regen that way).

WA says >=1, is it even worth using it @ 1 stack considering the cost of a GCD while BW buff is active?
You should technically have FF up for the duration of BW anyways (if you popped it before using BW) since BW is 10 seconds while FF is 20 seconds long.

[Muckey]

Hi fellow hunters. I've got a few questions about (BM) Hunters since I recently changed to BM. I have a few different scenarios. Anyone with good ideas please share the love!

1. Let's say Bestial Wrath is active with 2 seconds left on the buff. Do I killshot twice, or do I Kill Command once and killshot once? What's the priority here? Same goes for Barrage... What to do with 2 sec left on BW buff, do I Barrage once or do I killshot twice? Or one barrage + one killshot?

2. Let's say BW goes off cooldown but KC is still on a 6 sec CD.. Do I activate BW anyhow and just get one KC in the BW, or do I wait 2-3 sec so that I can use KC twice?

3. Cooldown on KC. BW comes off CD. Killshot availabe. Do I activate BW instantly, because stalling cooldowns generally isnt good, and then fire the 2 killshots during BW and just one 1 KC, or do I killshot twice and THEN pop BW to benefit from 2 KCs during the BW buff instead?

4. Got Gara as spirit beast pet. Using stampede minor glyph to make all pets during stampede the "same". Trying to cast the "spirit mend" heal from Spirit Beast on me, but I only get one heal. Is this nerfed? Because I'm fairly sure this used to be a "big cooldown heal" that we had during stampede since it would get a heal from all 6 pets simultaneously. Someone said it could still be cast 6 times during stampede but it had to be on different targets. I tried this but couldnt get it to work. Any clarification on this one?

5. What about the prowl ability on pets, should one use it? The pet has a 50% slow so I would assume it takes longer time for the pet to reach the boss, meaning it would do less attack(s). But maybe the 20% dmg increase on first hit makes up for it? Anyone did the math here?

[Deleted]

Hi fellow hunters. I've got a few questions about (BM) Hunters since I recently changed to BM. I have a few different scenarios. Anyone with good ideas please share the love!

1. Let's say Bestial Wrath is active with 2 seconds left on the buff. Do I killshot twice, or do I Kill Command once and arcane shot once, or do I KC and then killshot? What's the priority here? Same goes for Barrage... What to do with 3 sec left on BW buff, do I Barrage once or do I killshot twice?

2. Let's say BW goes off cooldown but KC is still on a 6 sec CD.. Do I activate BW anyhow and just get one KC in the BW, or do I wait 2-3 sec so that I can use KC twice?

3. Cooldown on KC. BW comes off CD. Killshot availabe. Do I activate BW to asap get the killshots fired during the BW, or do I killshot twice and THEN pop BW to benefit from 2 KCs during the BW buff instead?

4. Got Gara as spirit beast pet. Using stampede minor glyph to make all pets during stampede the "same". Trying to cast the "spirit mend" heal from Spirit Beast on me, but I only get one heal. Is this nerfed? Because I'm fairly sure this used to be a "big cooldown heal" that we had during stampede since it would get a heal from all 6 pets simultaneously. Someone said it could still be cast 6 times during stampede but it had to be on different targets. I tried this but couldnt get it to work. Any clarification on this one?

5. What about the prowl ability on pets, should one use it? The pet has a 50% slow so I would assume it takes longer time for the pet to reach the boss, meaning it would do less attack(s). But maybe the 20% dmg increase on first hit makes up for it? Anyone did the math here?

Lets talk numbers.

1) Ideally KC then kill shot. On average arcane shot is only 16k dmg while kill shot is 60k+ and KC being 30k+. Its worth using KC for the chance for proc (KC is higher priority over KS anyways), not worth using arcane shot.

3 seconds left, 2 kill shots then barrage. Barrage is 40k dpet vs 60k dpet KS, +20% for 40k is only 48k so use barrage to get the 50% focus cut (even with 2 targets its worth using KS over barrage, unless you got like 3-5+ adds - dont remember the exact numbers for dmg on non primary targets (I believe it was half - so maybe its worth using barrage over KS on 2 targets)).

2) KC on CD, no point waiting an entire CD to be able to get +10% dmg and alittle bit of focus. You've essentially lost 200% dmg to get 110% dmg... (alittle more than 110% with the focus reduction but still you've lost a chance for another proc).

3) 2 Kill shots on BW will get you +12k dmg~, 2 arcane shots will get you +3k dmg~ (+4.5k~ if you want to add in half the costs and all the jibber jabber of GCD etcetc).

4) Dont think you can get 6 heals, that would be OP as fk.

5) Never had pet with prowl :x


You always want to use BW on CD imo (unless saving for burst phase within next 10 seconds or so~). You can prelong BW for a few seconds to gather up focus (40-60 is probably enough IMO unless you're gathering up for a large aoe burst).

[saistain]

Is it better to use use stampede at pull and then use FF at whatever stacks with 20s on stampede remaining or wait for 2-3 stacks of frenzy before using stampede so that 5 stack FF overlaps with stampede?

[Menubrea]

See you in a few weeks.

Years more like. You have to get extremely lucky to get him at this point.

[Deleted]

5. What about the prowl ability on pets, should one use it? The pet has a 50% slow so I would assume it takes longer time for the pet to reach the boss, meaning it would do less attack(s). But maybe the 20% dmg increase on first hit makes up for it? Anyone did the math here?

I have been wondering this myself - Im using one of the porcupine spirit beasts. And it really likes to be in stealth (I thought all spirit beasts had the stealth mode preferred?) at pull meaning that I have to be really close at pull in order to use KC if I don't have blink.
Should I change pet or skip the sneaky stealth?

Its also kind of annoying with having the pet in stealth since I sometimes don't see my pet XD

[Menubrea]

I have been wondering this myself - Im using one of the porcupine spirit beasts. And it really likes to be in stealth (I thought all spirit beasts had the stealth mode preferred?) at pull meaning that I have to be really close at pull in order to use KC if I don't have blink.
Should I change pet or skip the sneaky stealth?

Its also kind of annoying with having the pet in stealth since I sometimes don't see my pet XD

Just turn it off.

[Muckey]

Lets talk numbers.

1) Ideally KC then kill shot. On average arcane shot is only 16k dmg while kill shot is 60k+ and KC being 30k+. Its worth using KC for the chance for proc (KC is higher priority over KS anyways), not worth using arcane shot.

3 seconds left, 2 kill shots then barrage. Barrage is 40k dpet vs 60k dpet KS, +20% for 40k is only 48k so use barrage to get the 50% focus cut (even with 2 targets its worth using KS over barrage, unless you got like 3-5+ adds - dont remember the exact numbers for dmg on non primary targets (I believe it was half - so maybe its worth using barrage over KS on 2 targets)).

2) KC on CD, no point waiting an entire CD to be able to get +10% dmg and alittle bit of focus. You've essentially lost 200% dmg to get 110% dmg... (alittle more than 110% with the focus reduction but still you've lost a chance for another proc).

3) 2 Kill shots on BW will get you +12k dmg~, 2 arcane shots will get you +3k dmg~ (+4.5k~ if you want to add in half the costs and all the jibber jabber of GCD etcetc).

4) Dont think you can get 6 heals, that would be OP as fk.

5) Never had pet with prowl :x


You always want to use BW on CD imo (unless saving for burst phase within next 10 seconds or so~). You can prelong BW for a few seconds to gather up focus (40-60 is probably enough IMO unless you're gathering up for a large aoe burst).

Thanks for the input mate, appreciate it a lot! However I dont quite follow you on "2" and "3".

On 2:nd, did you mean I should wait a few sec before I activate BW so I can assure I get 2 KC, or did you mean it's better to just instantly go ahead and use BW and then only get one KC during the BW buff?

on 3:rd I didnt quite follow either... Hehe. Is it worth activating BW for Kill Shot, or should I wait until I can get 2 KC there as well (and then also ofc use those 2 KS in the same BW)? Sry if I'm slow, I just didnt understand!

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I have been wondering this myself - Im using one of the porcupine spirit beasts. And it really likes to be in stealth (I thought all spirit beasts had the stealth mode preferred?) at pull meaning that I have to be really close at pull in order to use KC if I don't have blink.
Should I change pet or skip the sneaky stealth?

Its also kind of annoying with having the pet in stealth since I sometimes don't see my pet XD

If you right click the prowl once so it's no longer auto cast, and then left click it once it will always be off. That should solve your range problem. However, I'm not convinced it's the best option, due to the dmg increase on first attack (which would be KC for a pet, right?). Well I guess it has 0.05% value on your total dps, but still, just curious!

[Deleted]

I noticed in the docs one of the WA being 'BW focus starved' with 4th trigger being player focus <14.
BW doesn't regen player focus, it regens pet focus - shouldn't it be pet focus <25? Or is this added for the added benefit of the extra haste received from each stack? (and therefore increasing your focus regen that way).

WA says >=1, is it even worth using it @ 1 stack considering the cost of a GCD while BW buff is active?
You should technically have FF up for the duration of BW anyways (if you popped it before using BW) since BW is 10 seconds while FF is 20 seconds long.

BW doesn't regen pet focus OR player focus.

The cost of an Arcane Shot during BW is 15 seconds. If you do not have the focus to do that, you might as well spend the global on Focus Fire.

[Deleted]

Or maybe pet basic attacks and FF uptime isn't all our rotation is about?
Have you played IM? Cause if you have and you have looked at sims, you know that keeping bleastcleave up is the most important thing, followed by keeping barrage on CD and using as many KC as possible. Thing is, the focus return from cobras isn't that high so usually getting 1-2 KC per Barrage is what usually happens. That means we are keeping all that big dick aoe up but we're missing out on 2pc procs. And do you know what haste does? Haste reduces Cobra's cast time and gives us more passive regen, (together with increased attack speed, etc). Which means more focus to dump with KC, also makes the rotation more forgiving. It also means more 2pc procs which once again make the rotation easier and give you lots more damage.
Have you noticed how much easier the fight becomes when you do have FF up? And the extra focus translates into more KC -> More procs. So yes, I'll take haste over the other stats and I dont think it is overvalued. It gives you more damage, it makes your rotation easier and more forgiving. I know I'm not a robot, and especially while perfecting a new spec, I'll make mistakes. Haste will help those mistakes have less impact while still giving alot of dps , even if theoretically less.

This entirely misses the point of my post. What I was after is that there appears to be a noticeable discrepancy between the basic attack intervals the sims manage to get vs. the ones that actual players manage to get. Keeping Claw on autocast can't really be a player skill issue, so if we have to take the additional delay as a given, this means that in that regard, sims perform strictly better on average and the superiority of BM sim dps is misleading.
Also, the benefits you attribute to Haste (more focus to dump into KC/Barrage while keeping BC up) should be exactly why it is performing better on prolonged AoE, not some added bonus.

And yes, I have played Iron Maidens and as it happens to be, perfecting your 'big dick aoe' is largely irrelevant to beating encounter when all you need to do is
1) meet the DPS requirements for ships
2) get every boss to as close to 20% as possible before pushing Marak (before next ship, might even mean that you need to go slow on AoE for a bit)
3) burst Marak

Getting a bigger Stampede burst with more Mastery would be better for both 1) and 3).

[value]

Can anyone provide a haste spreadsheet for BM, at which break points you achieve one thenth of a second in decrease of cobra shot cast time?