Concerns about LFR loot

[Alroxas]

Except that it will become the standard for pugs to only take people with a certain itemlevel - which will require LFR Gear to achieve.

Seems like a weak argument since crafted gear starts at ilv 640 and can be upgraded twice (once to 655 and again to 665).

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but it seems they have changed their minds.

How so? My understanding is the following:

Blizzard envisions two loot/content tracks: a solo path where you run normal mode dungeons and then Raid Finder, or a social path where you do premade groups or Proving Grounds Silver for Heroic Dungeons, and then move onto Normal raiding or beyond.

This would seem to indicate that Heroic Dungeon gear should be more than sufficient to tackle Normal raiding if you're a decent player.

[Hellrime]

You guys and/or girls are trying to convince a group of entitled crybabies with special snowflake syndrome that they don't deserve heroic raid gear for doing a very small fraction of the work of a single heroic raider. You aren't going to get anywhere with that argument. Blizzard caved and now they have tasted blood.

You don't need raid purples to blow up questing PvE content unless you're really, really awful at your class. You know this, I know this. Blizzard should just make the iLvl of the LFR gear super inflated but make the stats the same because all they really care about is that one single number anyway.

[aziras]

Except that it will become the standard for pugs to only take people with a certain itemlevel - which will require LFR Gear to achieve.

This...

Many of the LFR-raiders are not raiding LFR because their skill limits them to be there, but they are there because it is easier than dealing with the PUG-barons (you all know these guys... it is the iLvl535 guy without curve asking for iLvl550+ people with curve to join his FlexGarrosh PUG).

As soon as you have a human factor in forming a group there will be these people. They have been around since vanilla and will never go away. And as long as these people have an actual number reference that will quickly, and somewhat accurately, determine a person's performance it will get used. In WotLK people even went the lengths of installing an addon for the purpose and making PUG candidates line up to be inspected to see their gearscore.

Unfortunately social networking is still the most efficient way to get a good gaming experience out of an MMO. Personally I do not believe any iLvl adjustments will ever fix PUG'ing. It is broken almost beyond repair. One thing that could fix PUG'ing would be a second tier of guilds though. If it was possible to join parallel communities straight from within the game they could help people PUG as well. But it should not be at the expense of having to leave your guild.
Then they could allow players to join communities, have events scheduled in the calendar with signups and there would be some consistency for the players without dedicated raiding guilds. This would also allow people to form gaming groups across servers. For anything other than PUG'ing I have no reason to be on a high population server, so a change like this could make people less prone to stacking on the popular servers.

[Deleted]

This...
Many of the LFR-raiders are not raiding LFR because their skill limits them to be there, but they are there because it is easier than dealing with the PUG-barons (you all know these guys... it is the iLvl535 guy without curve asking for iLvl550+ people with curve to join his FlexGarrosh PUG).
<snip>

Oh please. Stop using this as an excuse. Yes there are dicks out there that will demand higher gear level than they have and that is required for what they want to do, This has always been the case. However there is NOTHING to stop you forming your own group and doing the content you want to do. There are multiple routes to do this, from asking friends, to Openraid and Oqueue. Stop using the "but people ask this" as a crux and just get out there and do it yourself.

[Gilian]

It has been known for ages that LFR loot would be higher ilevel than heroic 5-man loot. By the time LFR opens if you haven't already spammed heroic 5-mans and gotten into normal+ content you belong in LFR it's part of your progression. Blizzard wants to make LFR unappealing for dedicated raiders, if you're not geared for raiding before LFR opens you're not very dedicated. Most of the reason to run LFR wasn't the tiny ilevel boost, it was for tier and trinkets. The former has been removed from LFR, the latter has been neutered.

Let it go.

A few months ago they said heroic 5 mans would give better gear than LFR. I guess a few months is "ages".

Fyi, not everyone who raids normal, heroic or mythic is racing for world/realm first. And LFR as a catch up mechanic has been aweful.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

There needs to be some incentive for people to run LFR.

There is, to see the content- the original intent of LFR. If you want "more" then raid properly, no- this isn't "elitist" this is just how the game works.

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Oh please. Stop using this as an excuse. Yes there are dicks out there that will demand higher gear level than they have and that is required for what they want to do, This has always been the case. However there is NOTHING to stop you forming your own group and doing the content you want to do. There are multiple routes to do this, from asking friends, to Openraid and Oqueue. Stop using the "but people ask this" as a crux and just get out there and do it yourself.

Exactly, people want things thrown at them instead of putting in some kind of effort for it. "But I don't want to raid lead!" tough luck then, find someone you know that does lead and ask if they want to do something. If you didn't manage to beat Bowser you didn't call Nintendo and cry about it, you got better at the game and you progressed... this is EXACTLY the same. Also if you can't find the time to do proper raids then you're either valuing something else (work, family, other hobbies) over wow (which is completely fine) but don't expect the same experience as some people who has this as their main hobby and spend countless hours per week doing this. Why should someone that plays 3 hours a week be rewarded on equally to someone who plays 20+ hours a week (or more)=

[MoanaLisa]

Many of the LFR-raiders are not raiding LFR because their skill limits them to be there, but they are there because it is easier than dealing with the PUG-barons (you all know these guys... it is the iLvl535 guy without curve asking for iLvl550+ people with curve to join his FlexGarrosh PUG).

Pug Barons are going to have an interesting time forming a raid with the new UI for it. You can't require gear at a minimum ilevel for a pug formed in the new Group Finder UI that's higher than your own. If the UI is as good as advertised forming pugs in Trade will take a hit. The net effect may well be more pugs forming at realistic ilevels. We'll have to see if it all works out.

Source: http://www.wowhead.com/news=241250/w...hots:3684294:6

[Varabently]

This has been talked about to death. LFR item level is fine at 640 since it will open in slow wings compared to heroic dungeons which can be repeated many times at launch when gearing. There needs to be some incentive for people to run LFR.

Why does there need to be incentive to get people to run LFR? Isn't the incentive that you get to see content without actually trying to get a group together? Why are we trying to get people to run LFR so hard? It seems to me that the gear should scale with the difficulty. That means the difficulty of the content plus any overhead "costs" like logistics, setup time, consumables, etc. LFR and LFD seem to have about the same setup time and such (none, you just queue), so if the difficulty is on par, why would it award higher gear? Unless the idea is that heroics are going to be easier than LFR, which i really hope is not the case.

Edit: I'd also like to point out (and maybe this isn't useful) that 640->655 ilevel may be +15, but it's not like 100 to 115 ilevel is it? The former is a 2.3% ilevel increase and the latter is a 15% ilevel increase. So is it REALLY that big of a deal? I dunno we'd have to crunch the numbers.

[Deleted]

Why does there need to be incentive to get people to run LFR? Isn't the incentive that you get to see content without actually trying to get a group together? Why are we trying to get people to run LFR so hard?

Edit: I'd also like to point out (and maybe this isn't useful) that 640->655 ilevel may be +15, but it's not like 100 to 115 ilevel is it? The former is a 2.3% ilevel increase and the latter is a 15% ilevel increase. So is it REALLY that big of a deal? I dunno we'd have to crunch the numbers.

They are not trying to incentivise LFR. It is simple another gearing option available.
as others have stated and pointed out in this very thread, there is crafted gear that can be upgraded and AFIR LFR wont be open untill after the normal modes have been opened anyway. Even if they were, The gearing routes that are available to all players means you can go from Heroic dungeons to Normal mode raiding. The only people who are bitching are the self entitled whiney little snowflakes who complain about LFR anyway. Dungeon loot, has always been a lower quality than raid loot of the same content patch. To be otherwise would just be plain retarded and anyone who thinks otherwise must have an IQ Level lower than the Ilevel of loot dropped in Ragefire Chasam

[Tharkkun]

Why is it fine at 640? The difference is almost big as a tier. Given double droprates it will be too big of an upgrade to ignore.

And no one knew about the actual item levels until very recently, so don't pretend it was known for ages because simply it wasn't.

Even if it's as big as a tier the difference between ilevels is much smaller. Your power gain won't scale like it did in the past. Just your health.

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You guys and/or girls are trying to convince a group of entitled crybabies with special snowflake syndrome that they don't deserve heroic raid gear for doing a very small fraction of the work of a single heroic raider. You aren't going to get anywhere with that argument. Blizzard caved and now they have tasted blood.

You don't need raid purples to blow up questing PvE content unless you're really, really awful at your class. You know this, I know this. Blizzard should just make the iLvl of the LFR gear super inflated but make the stats the same because all they really care about is that one single number anyway.

When Heroic raid gear is the same ilevel as LFR gear you might have an argument.

Also the new group finder will form your raids for you. It supports all current and legacy content as well as pvp and arenas. It will have a minimum ilevel for certain content to be listed much like the finder for Flex currently works now.

Blizzard also said you can grab 9 other friends and queue LFR as a 10 man instance free from the random pugs. So the special snowflakes that don't believe others should be in LFR can run it by themselves.

[Alvito]

Pug Barons are going to have an interesting time forming a raid with the new UI for it. You can't require gear at a minimum ilevel for a pug formed in the new Group Finder UI that's higher than your own. If the UI is as good as advertised forming pugs in Trade will take a hit. The net effect may well be more pugs forming at realistic ilevels. We'll have to see if it all works out.

Source: http://www.wowhead.com/news=241250/w...hots:3684294:6

I do giggle a little when I have joined or see a raid where somebody is asking for an item level for everybody that is grossly higher then their own.

[clevin]

Its a perfect solution for me, cant stand LFR and this makes it feel irrelevant, those 10 ilvls are not enough to drive me in to LFR if there is no tier/decent trinkets.

Bolded the key part here. The reason normal and heroic raiders have felt that they need to run LFR in the past has been that in some cases the tier bonuses were worth so much that you'd take the LFR tier pieces even with the lower level and some of the LFR trinkets had procs that were so powerful they were better than some normal mode trinkets without those procs. Eliminating tier and OP trinkets from LFR removes that reason. Now, we can move from heroic 5s to normal if we want or do LFR and get slight upgrades if we want. Note the word... 'want'.

The only downside I see are ignorant PUGs that insist on a certain level.

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They are not trying to incentivise LFR. It is simple another gearing option available.

higher ilevel does, though, act as incentive.

[blackblade]

Why is it fine at 640? The difference is almost big as a tier. Given double droprates it will be too big of an upgrade to ignore.

And no one knew about the actual item levels until very recently, so don't pretend it was known for ages because simply it wasn't.

You can get 640 gear from CM dungeons and crafting if you hate LFR and want to get an edge on your first raid.

[HeedmySpeed]

I do giggle a little when I have joined or see a raid where somebody is asking for an item level for everybody that is grossly higher then their own.

Why? I'd raid with a raid leader who was undergeared as long as he knows how to lead well. Seems fair, carry the numbers while your lead carries the coordination.

If he's doing shit all to lead then it's a sorry site.

[clevin]

Why? I'd raid with a raid leader who was undergeared as long as he knows how to lead well. Seems fair, carry the numbers while your lead carries the coordination.

If he's doing shit all to lead then it's a sorry site.

it'sa because those people are usually crappy and looking for carries. Also because, well, think about it. They want people who've put effort into gearing that they haven't put forth.

[Alvito]

Why? I'd raid with a raid leader who was undergeared as long as he knows how to lead well. Seems fair, carry the numbers while your lead carries the coordination.

If he's doing shit all to lead then it's a sorry site.

It takes zero extra effort to lead a pug group. More often then not the nonsense item level leaders are the core of the problem too.

[aziras]

Oh please. Stop using this as an excuse. Yes there are dicks out there that will demand higher gear level than they have and that is required for what they want to do, This has always been the case. However there is NOTHING to stop you forming your own group and doing the content you want to do. There are multiple routes to do this, from asking friends, to Openraid and Oqueue. Stop using the "but people ask this" as a crux and just get out there and do it yourself.

You missed my point. Personally I made a choice not to do hardcore raiding this time around, for exactly that reason, but I am not complaining about the loot. I did my share of hardcore raiding in vanilla and wotlk and found that I am not able to hit a level of gameplay in between that matches the commitment I can put in the game - this includes suffering the randomness and "non raiding" aspects of LFR, in order to avoid the PUG-barons. I know I could use OQ or OR, but right now I am having more fun leveling and LFR-gearing my alts waiting for WoD than I would have socializing to get into a decent raid group. My highest iLvl character is currently 545'ish, which is what I have been able to assemble from LFR and celestials. Perfectly fine for LFR and likely also enough to get myself in a decent PUG through OQ/OR (especially since I play a healer on that character). Since I did raidleading for 6+ years, I could probably pull of an OR raid leading it and nobody being aware that it was my first time.
My point was that iLvl is part of the gating in PUGs, whether people like it or not. And for many people, "leading a raid" is just not an option for many players. Just like many choose not to tank on their tank hybrids - because they do not have what it takes to lead. I could go on about personality profiles, but I do not see that being futile.

Pug Barons are going to have an interesting time forming a raid with the new UI for it. You can't require gear at a minimum ilevel for a pug formed in the new Group Finder UI that's higher than your own. If the UI is as good as advertised forming pugs in Trade will take a hit. The net effect may well be more pugs forming at realistic ilevels. We'll have to see if it all works out.

Source: http://www.wowhead.com/news=241250/w...hots:3684294:6

This looks really interesting. People will probably find other ways to get around this, but at least there will be a built-in method for forming groups. If only it has a rating system for players, it might turn out pretty well.
It also reminds me of one of the better features of Warhammer Online. You could casually open your group up while question and people could browse and join on their own initiative. That was great, as you could see other players on the same quests as you and join up with them if they had unlocked their group.
I also expect many players to not form a group, simply because it limits the number of options for where they can go to one at a time. If I am looking for a group I can look for as many different instances/activities at a time as I can bother. But if I am forming a group for something I have to indicate where I am going and will be stuck LFM until we are ready to go. For me, the time spent looking for an activity is more important than where I actually go. Which is why I am often currently queued for LFD and the max 5 raids at the same time. It currently bugs me that I cannot queue for raids and list my name for otherraids at the same time, so I have some concerns about the simultaneous use of these systems.

[nekobaka]

It has been known for ages that LFR loot would be higher ilevel than heroic 5-man loot. By the time LFR opens if you haven't already spammed heroic 5-mans and gotten into normal+ content you belong in LFR it's part of your progression. Blizzard wants to make LFR unappealing for dedicated raiders, if you're not geared for raiding before LFR opens you're not very dedicated. Most of the reason to run LFR wasn't the tiny ilevel boost, it was for tier and trinkets. The former has been removed from LFR, the latter has been neutered.

Let it go.

Meanwhile those who dont like raiding will ether have to do LFR or be forced to preform groups for challenge modes which one may or may not find fun over running heroics. Im sick of LFR having to screw over alternatives because it cant survive if Blizzard doesnt force people into it and effectively fake its popularity.

Just because someone does not like raiding doesnt make LFR where they belong. It is like saying all "casuals" are asocial dbags who only care about themselves.

[Deleted]

LFR is not relevant for mains and maybe primary twinks but after 2 months for every new character it will be the one and only way to catch up again. Because - yeah first heroic dungeons will become harder to pug when all main chars of good players don't longer run them and second LFR is too easy, too much better itemlevel compared to the time and (hopefully) energy you need to pug hc 5m - also pug groups think in itemlevel numbers, not in "uhh you must be much better because you have hc 5m gear only instead of better lfr gear that's easy to gain!111"

Sad stuff imo. Tbh nothing changes compared to mop besides valor stuff.

[salmonman78]

Ok, lord help me for wading into the middle of this but am a bit confused.

I thought there were 3 different 'Tier type' sets between LFR, Normal and Mythic. I know Normal and Mythic will have flashier effects and different looks compared to the LFR one(stats obviously different). Was i wrong in my reading somewhere?

I hope this next expansion to get my son and I into normal sometime but dont want to have the wrong idea since LFR might be where we hang for a while due to real life stuff.

EDIT: Ok, looked back at the items on here and I see now that LFR isn't what I thought it was. I assumed the first image shown in the Tier 17 page was the LFR but I guess that's normal actually then Heroic and Mythic.

So where can I find out more about how the Heroic 5-man stuff would help lead into the normal modes when released? Forgive my ignorance in advance but I don't want to pass on bad advice to my son as well. Rather look foolish myself and get corrected before I drag him in.