LFR Being Phased Out...is this Possible?

[Deleted]

WoW's not in TBC any more, which is why. They've moved away from organised raiding and more playing with friends (Flex)

What friends? WoW used to be the game where you made friends. My guild, for example, had real life meetings and we all met through WoW. Today they're all gone from the game, and the chances of making friends through WoW are pretty close to zero.

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It's not failed. See 16 boss opening tier of MoP, 12 boss mid-tier and a 14 boss end tier can be attributed to the fact that Blizzard has diverted a lot of resources to raid creation... because everyone sees raids now.

I quit in Cata, but got MoP recently to try it out. I did all those bosses in a couple of nights. It's was a complete waste of my time and money, and Blizzard's development effort. I would even take a handful of TBC style heroics over all those bosses, that's how poor the experience was. I won't be getting WoD.

[DeadmanWalking]

I find it amazing that before he quit any one of you would of tarred and feathered Ghostcrawler after ripping his nuts off with your teeth for shit he wasn't responsible for but if he says something you agree with after he quits then suddenly he is a paragon of society.

But I shouldn't be surprised since these are the same people who complain that LFR is bad because it 'requires no effort' and yet if you give them alternatives to LFR that require an ounce more effort they personally don't want to do it.

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What friends? WoW used to be the game where you made friends. My guild, for example, had real life meetings and we all met through WoW. Today they're all gone from the game, and the chances of making friends through WoW are pretty close to zero.

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I quit in Cata, but got MoP recently to try it out. I did all those bosses in a couple of nights. It's was a complete waste of my time and money, and Blizzard's development effort. I would even take a handful of TBC style heroics over all those bosses, that's how poor the experience was. I won't be getting WoD.

The only reason why you can't make friends is because you don't want to because effort. There are people out there every day making friends and your escuses are piss poor. I'm sorry that your old friends didn't wait around for years for you to come back. Just because there is a button to randomly go into instances doesn't mean you are blocked from making a bunch of friends to do these instances with. Join a guild and make some friends. It's not hard, you just are making shit up to support your viewpoint. I call bullshit.

[MoanaLisa]

Playing with friends is still organized raiding...

You've never played with my friends <rimshot>

Anyway, jokes aside, there are plenty of people who would have difficulties putting together a raid team for flex just using friends or even people from a casual guild. I was in a casual guild for a very long time and any request to just pick up and go do a raid together would often take a while before anything was done that could actually be thought of as organized. We could get maybe half a dozen. Others who were on were doing something else. And then we would ask around and by the time we got a group together some of the originals would be logged off or doing something else.

Perhaps the improved group finder UI will fix that. Perhaps not. I'm not entirely convinced that adding random strangers to a raid group, achievements and gear or not, are all that organized in the true sense of the word. I understand Blizzard's definition but reserve the right to disagree with it for every case. If flex and pugs qualify as 'organized' raiding many of the groups are just barely so.

[Radish Spirit]

What friends? WoW used to be the game where you made friends. My guild, for example, had real life meetings and we all met through WoW. Today they're all gone from the game, and the chances of making friends through WoW are pretty close to zero.

What a silly thing to say. How is making friends or forming guilds any different now than it ever was? If anything it is far easier to make friends now because you can run with people from any server all over the world and if you click and like each other you can recruit them. Back in the day, you had to settle for who was already on your server, and that often meant people that were sub-optimal in performance or attitude. Now I can find people who are great at both because I can look everywhere.

I've recruited almost 12 people for my guild in the past 3 months. Nothing is stopping me from having a BBQ if I want.

If you don't want to put in the effort anymore, that's fine, but don't pretend like the game somehow prevents you from doing it.

[Shinrael]

I won't bother reading all these comments so I can't be 100% sure if someone else hasn't said what I am about to say, but either way...

I am a pure casual player. I level new and new characters, I explore zones, I do pet battles, some world PvP, I grind heroic dungeons for justice points ( for heirlooms and transmog items ), I do some old raids/dungeons for mounts/transmog items. And I do LFR. I've only listed facts so far as you can see. So what do we know so far about me? I am a casual player who enjoys the game in his own way. And I do LFR. Now, if I say that I like LFR and I want to keep getting epics from it ( that are still lower ilvl than raids but higher ilvl than dungeons ) my opinion, like the opinion of many other people who have commented above, will become OBSOLETE! Why? Because I get these epics and naturally I want to keep getting them. So yeah, my opinion, like the opinions of many others will become meaningless. But now I will say what I really think:

I do NOT want LFR to give me gear that is better than Heroic Dungeons. I've only stepped beyond LFR once, on my Human Paladin, I got as far as clearing Flexible weekly and doing a few bosses on Normal ( SoO 10m ) and I want to thank that guild which agreed to let me raid Flex with them although I had only 520 ilvl ( other people were asking for 530+ on my server ). I only had 2 methods to get to 530 ilvl at the time ( was still Season 14 so Celestials didn't drop 550 ilvl gear and I didn't have access to Ordos ). Either grind LFR ( and also Heroic Scenarios/Dungeons for the Valor Upgrades ) or grind Timeless Isle rares for Burdens of Eternity ( which could take weeks to get for every slot ). I had 520 ilvl WITH the crafted Belt and the Gloves and Pants from Celestials and everything upgraded to 2/2.

All the people who are telling the OP that he isn't obligated to do LFR are wrong. Especially at this stage of the expansion when every group leader is asking for crazy ilvls AND achievements. And don't you go "Well make your own raid then" on me. From personal experience I know that if you are on your own ( no guildies/friends to help you out ), making a group with low ilvl and no achievements is near impossible. My first successful time organising a raid ( I mean the gathering of the people, not actually killing the bosses, that's a whole different story ) was after I already had 545 ilvl.

LFR IS a gate. Fact. An obstacle for those that do not enjoy it. Quests and Normal Dungeons 1-90, Heroic Dungeons, Scenarios and Heroic Scenarios at 90. Then LFR. And only then Flexible+

Heroic Dungeons gear: 463
Timeless Isle gear: 496/535
LFR gear: 528
Flexible gear: 540

You just can't skip it if you are on your own. I was really hoping that in WoD it reward gear equal to the HC Dungeons but it is still a little above it. I know it is a small difference but for people like me who might not go into serious raiding, LFR would be the cap again and even if it is just 4 ilvls or so above HC Dungeon gear, I will still feel obligated to do it if I want to get the best out of my raiding capabilities. Not to mention that I'd love to gear up via HC Dungeons that are actually hard ( hopefully, they will be in WoD ). In fact, I'd love to do 5 man riding. At least my PC can handle 5 mans and I will be able to progress. LFR is for people who want to EXPERIENCE the raids like ME, not for serious raiders who want to do actual raiding for gear and other epic rewards. I don't want to GRIND LFR for the gear it provides. I want to do it just ONCE to see what it is like, to see those awesome cinematics and so on.


Why I bothered writing this wall? Because I am a hardcore LFR raider ( please, do notice the sarcasm ) and I actually don't want to get "free epics" as some people call them from it.

[Televators]

I wouldn't have problems, if LFR gear wouldn't be that superior compared to 5-man heroic gear.

If only it'd be just an alternative way of gearing, instead of being another step on the gearing stairs.

LFR gear is superior to heroic 5-man gear because heroics 5-mans are the easiest content available in the game at 90. Yes, easier than LFR. Also, easier than normal, leveling 5-mans from 85-90. Heroic 5-man bosses die in 10-20 seconds at this point.

[DeadmanWalking]

I do NOT want LFR to give me gear that is better than Heroic Dungeons.(snip)
All the people who are telling the OP that he isn't obligated to do LFR are wrong. Especially at this stage of the expansion when every group leader is asking for crazy ilvls AND achievements. And don't you go "Well make your own raid then" on me. From personal experience I know that if you are on your own ( no guildies/friends to help you out ), making a group with low ilvl and no achievements is near impossible. My first successful time organising a raid ( I mean the gathering of the people, not actually killing the bosses, that's a whole different story ) was after I already had 545 ilvl.

LFR IS a gate. Fact. An obstacle for those that do not enjoy it. Quests and Normal Dungeons 1-90, Heroic Dungeons, Scenarios and Heroic Scenarios at 90. Then LFR. And only then Flexible+

Heroic Dungeons gear: 463
Timeless Isle gear: 496/535<-----
LFR gear: 528
Flexible gear: 540

You just can't skip it if you are on your own. .

Notice the <---? There you go, one alternative to LFR. Yes, it will require effort to get a full suit of 535 but isn't that what your gripe is? That LFR doesn't require effort? So you don't want to do the alternatives to LFR because they require effort?

Other alternatives, Normal Raiding Tier Gloves and pants drop from celestials, there are higher than Raid belts on sale on auction house or you can craft them. You can buy a tot weapon off the auction house. There are world bosses from tot. There are valor vendors from tot. If you have the epic cloak you can get better than raid gear off ordos. You can use oqueue to get in a flex at any time of day. You can expend timeless coins to get a weapon. You can get gear from PVP that is just as useful in PVE because it is not nerfed like in cata. You can craft some gear.

You have alternatives to LFR, the question is do you want to show more effort than just doing LFR. It's not required or forced to do LFR. When SoO opened up I was already in raiding gear on my main but on my alt I collected a full set of 535 timeless burden gear in the first 3 weeks (18 days) before wing 1 LFR was even opened and I realized I didn't need anything in LFR because everything that was an upgrade was in flex which I was already farming.

[melodramocracy]

Heres how most people look at things:

LFR - Not recognized by the majority of the player base as real raiding. More of a path of least resistance to put a bit of gear on alts.

Flex - The very bare bones basics of raiding. Abilities have been tuned so low that anyone can do it if they put just a tiny bit of effort into it.

Normal - Fights tuned to be somewhat challenging, yet very doable for people who raid together normally. These are also doable by pugs, but higher item levels for pugs are usually required because people are not used to raiding with eachother, and therefore the higher ilvl gives more room for error.

Heroic - The real form of raiding. The way the bosses were meant to be killed. The way the developers envisioned the bosses initially, and present the most challenge for a group. This form of raiding are reserved for groups of people who raid together normally and have mastered the normal versions of these bosses (or atleast killed those bosses once).

Which is why LFR can easily be phased out because most people 1) dont like LFR, 2) dont consider LFR raiding at all, and 3) use LFR as a crutch just to get a few more pieces to be more able to do flex or higher. Also the side 4) use LFR as a trolling cesspit.

LFR is objectively raiding. Seeing that raiding can be defined as a gathering of a fixed # of participants working to down a common boss. End of story. Difficulty has jack shit to do with whether something is a raid or not, especially given how much of a factor gear plays in it.

[Anzaman]

LFR gear is superior to heroic 5-man gear because heroics 5-mans are the easiest content available in the game at 90. Yes, easier than LFR. Also, easier than normal, leveling 5-mans from 85-90. Heroic 5-man bosses die in 10-20 seconds at this point.

Yeah... 463 content sure is hard at this point of expansion...

Also, keep in mind that there will be level 100 normal AND heroic dungeons.

If only it would be;
a) level 100 normal -> heroic -> "raiding"
b) level 100 normal -> LFR -> "raiding"

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I find it amazing that before he quit any one of you would of tarred and feathered Ghostcrawler after ripping his nuts off with your teeth for shit he wasn't responsible for but if he says something you agree with after he quits then suddenly he is a paragon of society.

I didn't have anything against GC.

[DeadmanWalking]

LFR is objectively raiding. Seeing that raiding can be defined as a gathering of a fixed # of participants working to down a common boss. End of story. Difficulty has jack shit to do with whether something is a raid or not, especially given how much of a factor gear plays in it.

The difficulty in LFR comes from having an uncoordinated group of 25 random players with varying levels of: skill, gear, knowledge of their class, knowledge of boss mechanics, AFKholes, reforge/enchants/gems, and the inability to communicate outside of typing (with varying degrees of typing skills.).

If there was no difficulty then no one would ever wipe in there and that's not what happens. If you don't wipe it is because a majority of people were showing effort to compensate for the ones that were holding them back.

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Yeah... 463 content sure is hard at this point of expansion...

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I didn't have anything against GC.

A lot of people did.

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As for 'LFR is not real raiding to most everyone'.
Back in Cata I took some of my non-raiding friends into LFR to show them what a raid was like, they loved it but one exclaimed that now they were a real raider and I said, "Eh, Not really." To which he asked why, then I explained, "That would be like riding up to lance Armstrong on a new bicycle and saying that now you were both professional bike riders. This isn't the same as raiding in normal or heroic mode." Then they both agreed they wanted to do real raiding and they joined my raid guild and have been members for all of MoP. Their skills have increased amazingly under my tuteledge and now are definately real raiders.

While many people do not consider LFR to be real raiding they are not the majority because only a minority actually raid and the majority consider LFR to be their end game. An elitist can not be a special snowflake member of a minority and a representative of the majority at the same time.

[cabyio]

I'd personally love to, but the community generally just makes me too nervous to try. That's how I've felt since I last pugged in WOTLK. Seems the community has gotten at least 25% more vitriol-fueled with randoms since then.

Why would it make you nervous? It's not like that can actually damage you in any way. If you don't want to pug than find a guild. Pugging will always be a cesspool of both bad attitudes and bad players. Find a guild that you like and all your woes will be solved.

[Deleted]

What a silly thing to say. How is making friends or forming guilds any different now than it ever was?

It is entirely different. In TBC you had to make friends just to be able to run heroics effectively. Otherwise you'd be spamming trade like an idiot getting nothing done. Guilds were the way to do progress content, so people tended to be much more loyal and friendly (of course there were guild hoppers, but that's life). Today majority just get grouped with random people (LFG/LFR) that they don't know and will likely never see again, zerg through the place in silence (if you're lucky) or while hurling abuse (if you're unlucky). Everyone has to be in a guild to get the perks, so many, many people are in some random guild they got spam invited into where everyone is just soloing and couldn't care less about anyone else. If you join a progress guild, you still have no real incentives to be nice or loyal because it's trivial to switch guilds and gear up outside raiding guilds thanks to gear resets every patch.

The game systems design is extremely important in shaping the community and playerbase. Look at LoL and how it turns perfectly average people into raging lunatics due to the way it's setup. WoW in vanilla and TBC catalyzed communities and friendships, because that was the most effective way to play, and being a raging lunatic would make it very hard for your to accomplish anything. Today's WoW doesn't do it, thanks to guild perks, LFR, and LFG, among other changes.

[DeadmanWalking]

It is entirely different. In TBC you had to make friends just to be able to run heroics effectively. Otherwise you'd be spamming trade like an idiot getting nothing done. Guilds were the way to do progress content, so people tended to be much more loyal and friendly (of course there were guild hoppers, but that's life). Today majority just get grouped with random people (LFG/LFR) that they don't know and will likely never see again, zerg through the place in silence (if you're lucky) or while hurling abuse (if you're unlucky). Everyone has to be in a guild to get the perks, so many, many people are in some random guild they got spam invited into where everyone is just soloing and couldn't care less about anyone else. If you join a progress guild, you still have no real incentives to be nice or loyal because it's trivial to switch guilds and gear up outside raiding guilds thanks to gear resets every patch.

The game systems design is extremely important in shaping the community and playerbase. Look at LoL and how it turns perfectly average people into raging lunatics due to the way it's setup. WoW in vanilla and TBC catalyzed communities and friendships, because that was the most effective way to play, and being a raging lunatic would make it very hard for your to accomplish anything. Today's WoW doesn't do it, thanks to guild perks, LFR, and LFG, among other changes.

You seem to be operating under the ideal that just because you can do random groups and be a dick that you don't make any friends outside of the randoms and that your experience is an example of the everyman. You don't represent everyone, in fact your experiences I would fit into the term, "Maybe it's just you, ever think of that?"

Now instead of being forced to make friends you can make friends with people who can't help you down the content. You can make friends with someone who just wants to fish, or just wants to transmog or RP. You can make friends, you just don't want to. Again, this is just you, not every one. I've made lots of friends in this game regardless if dungeons can be done randomly or LFR.

You are completely capable of joining a guild, making friends and making a 5 man group and doing a 5 man random dungeon when you hit that button. You are also capable of making a server only LFR group if you want to. Nothing stopping you.

The difference is if you have 4 people you dont have to shout for a 5th person for 2 hours and not do anything else.

To me it sounds like you just don't want to put any effort in making friends unless you are forced to make friends. You should be able to make friends without the devs forcing you to make friends. You just don't want to.

[Deleted]

To me it sounds like you just don't want to put any effort in making friends unless you are forced to make friends. You should be able to make friends without the devs forcing you to make friends. You just don't want to.

How about don't try to tell me what I want or don't want, that's just idiotic. And it's not just me, all you need to do is to take a look at the server communities. My old realm had a dozen solid guilds some with histories going back to before WoW, now there is nothing at all. No community of any kind. The game no longer catalyzes friendships and strong communities, and I can assure you I'm not the only one that has made that observation. And yes, an MMORPG should "force" people to make friends, not be 100% soloable like WoW.

[Tharkkun]

How about don't try to tell me what I want or don't want, that's just idiotic. And it's not just me, all you need to do is to take a look at the server communities. My old realm had a dozen solid guilds some with histories going back to before WoW, now there is nothing at all. No community of any kind. The game no longer catalyzes friendships and strong communities, and I can assure you I'm not the only one that has made that observation. And yes, an MMORPG should "force" people to make friends, not be 100% soloable like WoW.

That's what happens when people move on from a video game. Guilds break up, relationships are severed. It's no different than graduating from high school, college, or starting a new job. Both of my realms had the same thing. Now there's new guilds instead. Mine has been fortunate enough to survive the end of each expansion so we've been around since the beginning of BC.

[Sansnom]

It is entirely different. In TBC you had to make friends just to be able to run heroics effectively. Otherwise you'd be spamming trade like an idiot getting nothing done. Guilds were the way to do progress content, so people tended to be much more loyal and friendly (of course there were guild hoppers, but that's life).

And I think you are using the terms wrong. I would prefer to call them "guildmates", or "colleagues". I would definitely not call them friends. I am sure it can happen making friends in guilds. But as you said, you join the guild for a purpose and that purpose was to beat the content together. Nothing more. Nothing less. The fact it did not survive indicates others were there for the same purpose. If it really was a group of friends, then it would survive. You would be socialization outside of WoW. There are guilds like that. The one I am in has that although I am not part of that inner circle, the evidence is there that these members really are friends.

[zorkuus]

You would be socialization outside of WoW. There are guilds like that. The one I am in has that although I am not part of that inner circle, the evidence is there that these members really are friends.

And those kind of guilds are a tiny minority as they were a minority in the past. So what's the point in bringing them up in this argument?

[Queen of Hamsters]

What friends? WoW used to be the game where you made friends. My guild, for example, had real life meetings and we all met through WoW. Today they're all gone from the game, and the chances of making friends through WoW are pretty close to zero.

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I quit in Cata, but got MoP recently to try it out. I did all those bosses in a couple of nights. It's was a complete waste of my time and money, and Blizzard's development effort. I would even take a handful of TBC style heroics over all those bosses, that's how poor the experience was. I won't be getting WoD.

People claiming that WoW is less social now than before are really shooting themselves in the foot. Acting as if it was ever a NORM for guilds to meet IRL on a regular basis is also plain stupid. Some guilds did it back then, some do today as well. Simple as that. With cross-realm mechanics it's possible to be more social than ever, but of course just sitting and whinging about how it used to be "easier and better before!" takes less effort than going out and making friends for oneself.

If I can make connections and find groups of great people in this game, then so can anyone claiming to have been a very social player at some point. Saying that making friends in wow has a zero chance these days is downright laughable. Servers are still a thing, players are still a thing, group content = still a thing. How is that difficult to grasp?

[Firebert]

I quit in Cata, but got MoP recently to try it out. I did all those bosses in a couple of nights. It's was a complete waste of my time and money, and Blizzard's development effort. I would even take a handful of TBC style heroics over all those bosses, that's how poor the experience was. I won't be getting WoD.

What, all 141 bosses?

Yes, one hundred and forty-one.

[Sansnom]

And those kind of guilds are a tiny minority as they were a minority in the past. So what's the point in bringing them up in this argument?

It was a response to a claim that I disagree with it. That people had to "make friends" to complete contents. In my opinions, these were not friends as claimed, but "colleagues" and "guildmates". There are no social contact beyond raid nights.