Pathfinder

[Pendulous]

So, let's talk about Pathfinder. The D&D 3.75, as it were. If you haven't seen Pathfinder but have played 3.5, you can check out this site to see all its goodies.

So, my first foray into Pathfinder was my recently abandoned character, an Aasimar Cleric. And that brings me to my first point. Racial perks are better than ever. First off, they dropped a bunch of level adjustment races to be baseline, to give better choices to optimizing your character. Aasimars make the absolute best clerics, due to the wisdom and charisma bonuses. But, one thing that bothered me about playing a cleric, was that they aren't in any way martial. They might as well just not even be proficient with any armor, dropped their hit die to a d6, and given some more spellcasting and healing capabilities. But Channel Energy is awesome. I went with a neutral deity so I could get Dual Channel along with the necessary Selective Channel. But that would lead to my character's downfall. See, I took the deity Pharasma, so I could get the Water and Healing Domains. It fit perfectly with Elena, who was a copy of the character from Grandia 2, because I have no originality. Pharasma is basically "The Circle of Life" and she abhors undead, because it doesn't fit in the circle. My ally was playing a warlock, the class that gets1d6/2 lv. ranged touch attack every turn, and gets to pick a handful of arcane spells to use at will and last all day. He decided he wanted to raise undead, so he did. As such, I ditched the group, and warned the guards of the groups plan (I can't even remember it right now). So that was the end of her. It wasn't just a snap decision though. I was playing a neutral good cleric in a group of evil and acting-evil party members. It was a long time coming.

The problem with Channel Energy is, it really makes druids feel even less of a capable healer, which is what they are now. At first, I was excited to see that animal companions got their own leveling tree, basically. Then I realized just how limiting it is. My classic 3.5 druid, my highest level character, had a dire bear, which he used spells like Nature's Favor on to buff to hell and let him loose. Now, bears are limited to medium size at level 4, and they don't get any bigger. Their stats are shit, their AC is low, and they can't do much. The Beastmaster does better at animal companions, clerics are much better healers, and shapeshifting is only fun if you can fit into the space allowed. Also, having a super low AC as a huge bear isn't really fun for a melee-oriented class. In 3.5, I felt like I could at least compete in some regard with other classes, but as a druid in Pathfinder, it's all weakened.

I haven't played one, but I also don't like barbarians now. The rage abilities don't seem to do much, and don't make up for the fact that most of the classes, and characters in general, were buffed. Also, making rage last a number of rounds instead of having a number of uses per day sounds nice, but being tired at the end of it still doesn't make any remote sense, especially if you just used it for one round.

Fighters finally got..stuff. As did sorcerers and wizards, but I'll probably never play a wizard. Our group doesn't tend to.

Oh, and rogues are coo, but I found a better option. Scouts effectively get their "sneak attack" for free without relying on making the target lose their dex bonus, which I found was a pain in most combat situations. That's why when I wanted a sneaky character in 3.5, I played a Ninja, who got the ability to go invisible for a round (as a swift action), so it got some good use out of its sneak attack. Also it had some cool mobility bonuses. But now, ninjas don't get that, and the scout loses a few social skills and get a bunch of stuff in return, like more movement. The Scout Talents seems weaker than Rogue talents, but you can always take combat feats in place of them anyway, which feels like a fighter ability. So, scout, awesome.

That's about all I got on the classes. Our next campaign will be a mish-mosh of 3.5 and Pathfinder. It's gonna be super high-powered, and we're required to play a template. I'm going with Half-Celestia, and doing what I did in a previous 3.5 campaign. Wielding a huge longsword (or a large greatsword I guess), and going with the two feats that let you wield a bigger weapon. Problem is, I want to go cleric (the previous one was Favored Soul), but I want more martial ability, and as I already discussed, doesn't really exist in cleric. I could take an archtype package, most likely Weapon Champion, but it wouldn't help the fact that I need a lot of combat feats, plus the Base Attack Bonus to get said feats. I could just be a fighter, but I like the idea of self-sustaining, and our group has a bad tendency to not have any healers. Also, Righteous-freaking-Might.

So that's what I got so far. Anybody have any stories, suggestions, general chat about this, the most time-killing of RPG's?

[Lolretadin]

I've not tried Pathfinder, my group has stuck with D&D 3.5, but we are looking at converting to D&D 5th edition. It looks very close to being Pathfinder, in its simplicity, but not as dumbed down as 4th edition.

You can get the Basic Idea here:

http://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default...endly%29_0.pdf

D&D 5.0 is basically watered down Pathfinder.
That being said, one thing that D&D has that Pathfinder has is Demogorgon, because WotC owns the rights to his image.

[Omertocracy]

That's about all I got on the classes. Our next campaign will be a mish-mosh of 3.5 and Pathfinder. It's gonna be super high-powered, and we're required to play a template. I'm going with Half-Celestia, and doing what I did in a previous 3.5 campaign. Wielding a huge longsword (or a large greatsword I guess), and going with the two feats that let you wield a bigger weapon. Problem is, I want to go cleric (the previous one was Favored Soul), but I want more martial ability, and as I already discussed, doesn't really exist in cleric. I could take an archtype package, most likely Weapon Champion, but it wouldn't help the fact that I need a lot of combat feats, plus the Base Attack Bonus to get said feats. I could just be a fighter, but I like the idea of self-sustaining, and our group has a bad tendency to not have any healers. Also, Righteous-freaking-Might.

So that's what I got so far. Anybody have any stories, suggestions, general chat about this, the most time-killing of RPG's?

Pathfinder clerics can self-buff to be better melee fighters than actual fighters, provided you have time (10-20 rounds) to cast spells on yourself. Hospitaler Paladin can match a Cleric for heals and nearly matches a fighter for straight attack while having the usual ridonculous Paladin Saves and AC.

As for Barbarians, you are only tired for a length of time equal to how long you raged now, which is nowhere near as restrictive as 3.5's "until the end of the encounter" or 3.0's horrendous "until the end of the scene" duration. Although I do agree they did not get "buffed" as much as some of the other classes. Fighters can now wear Full Plate with 0 ACP (-1-4 from Fighter, -3 from Mithral) as early as level 11. In the game I DM, I buffed our Barbarian player slightly from Pathfinder base in that instead of getting DR at 7/10/13/16/19, he was getting it at 4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18/20 (2 at 20), and a Rage Power at each level that did not outright have something Rage related on it. It added up to 2 extra Rage Powers and 5 extra DR. It felt much better side by side with the Mystic Theurge.

As the Pathfinder games I have used have been restricted to "Just Pathfinder" I can't help with 3.5 crossover shenanigans. I am sure there are cleric-based full-power fighter classes out there. Ordained Champion? Justiciar (Justicar?) of Tyr? Ruby Knight? Fist of Raziel?

[Pendulous]

I would play a paladin if I could get around the alignment restriction. Their healing isn't great, but the good base attack and super awesome saves (though I noticed they don't get their charisma anymore) almost would make up for it. Another problem is Lighten Weapon requires a base attack of three, and Improved requires a base attack of eight. plus, I would end up taking Selective Channel, and possibly Maximize Channel (three times per day), and Power Attack, in between those Lighten Weapon feats. It could work out, but I dunno. I guess if I could play a chaotic good paladin, I might try that.

The Rage change is better that way, and I was not aware that that was the case. Still though, it's rather restrictive. I love how Fighters can basically get rid of their armor check penalties, and I think movement penalties for higher armor.

My first idea when I heard "3.5 mix with Pathfinder" was a Sacred Fist. A prestige class from Complete Divine that was a Monk/Cleric mix. You got good base attack, new levels of spellcasting almost every level, and your unarmed damage, and a couple other things, kept going up (Sacred Fist levels stacked with monk levels for their purposes). It also gave its own AC and movement speed bonuses. Again, alignment restriction, and the only alternate I found for monk in Pathfinder that allowed any alignment sucks. I think it was called Martial Artist. Also, Flurry of Blows doesn't continue to level up in Sacred Fist levels, so I'm not sure how awesome it'd be.

[Calfredd]

Not really Pathfinder related but I'm stuck in a Catch-22 with 4th ed. D&D. I got the books and everything thinking it'd be fun to play with my family because we're a big family of nerds so it was perfect. We tried a few games to try to learn but never got very far. And now we're at the point where we won't play until we learn what the heck we're doing but you really can't do that unless you play.

Edit: Wow! And the award for killing a thread the fastest goes to...

[Omertocracy]

I would play a paladin if I could get around the alignment restriction. Their healing isn't great, but the good base attack and super awesome saves (though I noticed they don't get their charisma anymore) almost would make up for it. Another problem is Lighten Weapon requires a base attack of three, and Improved requires a base attack of eight. plus, I would end up taking Selective Channel, and possibly Maximize Channel (three times per day), and Power Attack, in between those Lighten Weapon feats. It could work out, but I dunno. I guess if I could play a chaotic good paladin, I might try that.

The Rage change is better that way, and I was not aware that that was the case. Still though, it's rather restrictive. I love how Fighters can basically get rid of their armor check penalties, and I think movement penalties for higher armor.

My first idea when I heard "3.5 mix with Pathfinder" was a Sacred Fist. A prestige class from Complete Divine that was a Monk/Cleric mix. You got good base attack, new levels of spellcasting almost every level, and your unarmed damage, and a couple other things, kept going up (Sacred Fist levels stacked with monk levels for their purposes). It also gave its own AC and movement speed bonuses. Again, alignment restriction, and the only alternate I found for monk in Pathfinder that allowed any alignment sucks. I think it was called Martial Artist. Also, Flurry of Blows doesn't continue to level up in Sacred Fist levels, so I'm not sure how awesome it'd be.

Paladins get their Cha to saves at level 2 just like in 3.5. Hospitaler subtyped Paladins get Lay on Hands as well as Cleric channeling. The feat Unsanctioned Knowledge grants them one spell of each level (1-4) from Cleric, Inquisitor, or Bard spell lists. I've always hated L-G required Paladins. To me a Paladin can be of any alignment as long as it is the exact alignment of their deity and they follow every one of their deities rules. You may also look into the Anti-paladin.

.. There is a Homebrew Pathfinder conversion for the Sacred Fist that has been unofficially endorsed by the Pathfinder people. It just stacks with monk levels for Damage, Bonus AC, Movement, and Flurry and takes the 3.5 version from there. It does not give additional Cleric channeling.

Not really Pathfinder related but I'm stuck in a Catch-22 with 4th ed. D&D. I got the books and everything thinking it'd be fun to play with my family because we're a big family of nerds so it was perfect. We tried a few games to try to learn but never got very far. And now we're at the point where we won't play until we learn what the heck we're doing but you really can't do that unless you play.

There are large forum communities you can visit and read about people debating rules who are willing to throw examples to teach you. I would except I can't stand 4.0 myself.

- - - Updated - - -

Going to be starting a game soon where I will be playing a Kobold Paladin that has Str and Cha as its lowest scores. It's gonna be hilarious. I have requested an additional -5 penalty to all Intimidate checks because "Aww wook at da widdle lizard, thinks its a paladin. So cute!" I have also told because I chose to be exceptionally small even for a Kobold that I will be making climb checks to get into human-sized furniture.

[OrcsRLame]

I don't know shit about Pathfinder, but I'm practically a walking encyclopedia for 3.5. When you say that the campaign will be super high-powered, what are we talking here? Like, if it's not holds barred bring the most ridiculous cheesy crap possible; I'd recommend looking up current builds for Pun-Pun, The Thrice Betrayer of Shar and the Omnicicifer, as any of those will allow you to utterly destroy any D&D universe, barring time manipulation by Greater Deities.

If you're looking for something more on the mortal side of OP, you should probably stick with a tier 1 or tier 2 class. http://www.brilliantgameologists.com.../?topic=1002.0

Going with your idea of a melee cleric; I direct you to the Divine Metamagic feat. http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-di...etamagic--660/

Divine Metamagic is often taken with Persistent Spell. http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-ar...t-spell--2140/

Fyi, this is seen as pretty goddamn cheesy. The idea, is that with Divine Metamagic: Persistent, you can put up some very potent 24 hour buffs merely by spending 7 turning attempts per buff. To assist in this, you will want several Nightsticks, a magic item from Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead. Nightsticks costs 7500 GP each and give 4 extra turning attempts to anyone that possesses them. This is OP because the item's description never mentions the word "bonus" so it is not subject to the stacking rules in the DMG. You also don't have to be wielding one to get its benefits, you simply must have it on your person. So you can buy 4 or 5 of these, a paltry investment at mid-high level, and cast all the persistent spells you want.

Persistent spells must have a fixed or personal range. There's not a lot of those in 3.5 D&D, but the ones that do exist are powerful. There's 3 good candidates. Divine Power, Righteous Might and Divine Favor. Divine Power provides you with extra HP equal to your HD, a +6 enhancement bonus to strength and most importantly, it increases your BAB up to your HD. You already know what Righteous Might is, so I won't go into details. Divine Favor simply gives a +3 to attack and damage, at its highest level.

If you stack all of these together, you will be a better melee fighter than any Fighter or Barbarian, unless said Fighter goes for the Rapid Blitz line, then you'll need an intelligent weapon with dimension door to keep up with them in a 1v1 fight. This is all speaking in terms of 3.5 though; I have no idea how Pathfinder figures into this or what house rules you guys are running with.

Btw, if your BAB is limiting you for taking feats, Divine Power solves that issue as well. You must meet the prerequisites to take a feat, but you don't need to meet them all the time. If you no longer meet the prerequisites for a feat, you simply lose the feat until you fulfill the requirements again. I don't recall the exact book or page number, but I know this is stated in core and I can find it with some searching. Theoretically, the rule is meant to apply in much more mundane situations, like if a Fighter with Power Attack takes some strength damage, so he no longer has 13 strength, this rule is there to explain how you would handle that with regards to feat prerequisites. By how it's worded though, it would have to work both ways. So you can cast Divine Power, level up, take a feat, and the feat would only be active while you have Divine Power up, or until you level high enough to meet the prerequisites without it.

Also, pick up the first level spell Conviction, or its 3rd level version Mass Conviction for longer duration. While not quite 24 hours, this buff is god tier in any game. If you stack your saves well, it's not inconceivable to make a save against a Greater God's spell by 20th level.

If you want to be more OP with less work, just play a wizard. Read up on using Wish to chain Gate spells, and summon the Hebdomad to crush your foes! The same basic thing can also be done with a cleric though, so keep that in mind for higher levels. Just remember named beings can refuse, so only try to summon Zaphkiel if your DM is both not a dick and totally willing to just roll with the rule of cool.

Also, if your heart's not set on Half-Celestial, might I suggest taking a look at the Monster of Legend template from the 3.0 Monster Manual 2? And remember, 3.0 material is still considered valid in 3.5. I believe the first paragraph in the Player's Handbook states that. Monster of Legend is really really really OP for only a +2 CR.

I hope at least some of my advice is useful!

[Pendulous]

I think a rule he set up is that any conflicting rules would be based on Pathfinder. That being said, Divine Power sucks now. I like the idea of Persistent Spell, but it requires another spell, and Divine Metamagic may not work in Pathfinder because Turn Undead became Channel Energy (much better), and it takes a feat to be able to turn undead. Doesn't leave any room for actual martial feats. Lighten Weapon at least, and Power Attack (because with a two-handed weapon, that's +3 damage per 4 base attack). Except, oops. Righteous Might sucks now too, no BAB=cleric level. At this point it almost feels worth it to just play a fighter.

The main reason I wanted Half-Celestial was because of their ability to fly, on top of the spell-like abilities and ability score bonuses. Monster of Legend looks insane (and if I can think of a character to steal, would make for good roleplaying), but now I wonder if I can mix the two (for a total level adjustment of six). Would be hard to take only two from that list of special qualities. Fifth-level cleric caster sounds nice for the special attack though.

[Omertocracy]

Those Pathfinder spells still look pretty potent. There aren't many things that give a Luck bonus. Yes you still have to get the BAB, but that is something I would make you do if you were a player in my games anyway. And Righteous Might appears to have been buffed by 1 DR.

I remember reading somewhere (although this may have been a house rule in a game a while back) that any Turn Undead requirements can be straight converted to Channel Energy requirements.

Also, shit like MoL is why I restrict players from taking Templates in games I DM.

[OrcsRLame]

For the special qualities I think I'd take the abilities and reflective hide. The extra stats will help you win most fights and give you higher saves in situations where your reflective hide doesn't apply. Spell turning is OP, so a permanent spell turning is really really OP and will make you a god against casters.

They really nerfed the shit out of RM and DP lol. Can't say I blame them. It's kind of silly that the Cleric is better than the Fighter at the only thing the Fighter does, while also having huge utility and power that can be applied in more situations.

Solving your BAB problems won't be easy. With the nerfs to the good persistent buffs, it sounds to me like an arcane gish build that goes Abjurant Champion would be king of the melees. If you want to stick with cleric, you're either going to have to just suck it up and take the hit to your BAB, or take a prestige class or two. For picking PrCs, I'd recommend looking at this page. http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1344.0

For good melee oriented PrCs, I'd take a look at the Ordained Champion and the Fist of Raziel.

http://dndtools.eu/classes/ordained-champion/
http://dndtools.eu/classes/fist-of-raziel/

Full BAB, decent spellcasting progression, and some other nifty abilities. The bonus feats in particular from Ordained Champion look nice for your build.

[Kianapiranha]

I love Pathfinder.

[Pendulous]

3.5 prestige classes will be hard to convert. You said you haven't played Pathfinder yet, but they changed skills in a way that makes getting ranks harder. In 3.5, you could have your level + 3 in ranks. In Pathfinder, it's one rank per level (you don't get the times four points at first level), but, you get a +3 modifier on any class skills you have a rank in.

That kind of stuff is the things we haven't really discussed yet, so I don't know how accessible it will be.

[Omertocracy]

The conversion is -3 from skills required over 5, and some skills got consolidated. So if a class requires, for example, 8 Move Silently and 13 Hide, you would need 10 Stealth to take it.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I used to play the original incarnation of the 3rd edition rules for a while a long time ago. As such, I don't have any other D&D experiences outside that to compare with. That being said; how in your opinion does Pathfinder comepare to the above? Key changes? Advancements? Tweaks?

[Omertocracy]

I used to play the original incarnation of the 3rd edition rules for a while a long time ago. As such, I don't have any other D&D experiences outside that to compare with. That being said; how in your opinion does Pathfinder comepare to the above? Key changes? Advancements? Tweaks?

Pathfinder's main difference is all standard races would now be CR + .5 in 3.0/3.5 and the classes are on par with most non-broken prestige classes that did the same basic jobs. PF prestiges are for different flavors moreso than "gotta take this to be powerful enough to matter." They also condensed Search/Spot/Listen into one skill, Hide/Move Silently into one skill, and Balance/Escape Artist/Jump/Tumble/Use Rope into one skill, and Concentration is now a level-based check not a skill check.

They really did a major overhaul of the Skill system. It promotes cross-class skills and spreading your skills out instead of stacking Int+X skills to max.