Gamergate - OP updated 27 October

[Sj]

The only thing she really confirms in those posts is that the guy she was sleeping with is in a relationship, which he didn't tell her about.

Did she cheat on him (her alleged BF)? Or was their relationship over anyway? Do you know? I don't. Nor do I want to know, or care. Her sex life is none of my business, nor is it any of yours.

The crux of this thread is supposedly about her sleeping around to get good reviews for her game. There is no evidence such reviews exist, Kotaku says as much and the only things this guy penned are no more than ordinary news pieces reporting that her game exists (or will, it seems to still be in development) among others. So that makes her sleeping around (if even true) irrelevant, and really the massive focus on it is just indicative of the sexualised nature of this argument.

The thing is that even though they themselves didn't write anything, she used her connections to get into the "clique" of indie devs and journalists for personal gain, and the journalists facilitated it. It doesn't matter if she porked 5 guys or paid 5 guys, it's unethical and basically allows a small group of people to virtually control indie gaming while pushing their agendas while crucifying anybody who deviates from their values.

[Zvinny]

The only thing she really confirms in those posts is that the guy she was sleeping with is in a relationship, which he didn't tell her about.

Did she cheat on him (her alleged BF)? Or was their relationship over anyway? Do you know? I don't. Nor do I want to know, or care. Her sex life is none of my business, nor is it any of yours.

The crux of this thread is supposedly about her sleeping around to get good reviews for her game. There is no evidence such reviews exist, Kotaku says as much and the only things this guy penned are no more than ordinary news pieces reporting that her game exists (or will, it seems to still be in development). So that makes her sleeping around (if even true) irrelevant, and really the massive focus on it is just indicative of the sexualised nature of this argument.

As I said, those posts only opened the door to a much bigger scandal, involving the journalists. I don't care who she slept with. I mean, just by the standards of Kotakus own site their journalists violated policies, and I can prove it!

In the midst of the Zoe Quinn scandal, Kotaku editor-in-chief Stephen Totilo gave a statement affirming Kotaku's standard of ethics:
My standard has long been this: reporters who are in any way close to people they might report on should recuse themselves


Twitter conversations here, here, here, and here show that Patricia Hernandez, a Kotaku journalist, and Anna Anthropy, an indie game developer, are close friends who have lived together in the past.
Despite this, Patricia Hernandez has written positive reviews of Anna Anthropy's games and book for Kotaku here, here, here, and here.

Also, Polygon writer Ben Kuchera has a been supporter of Depression Quest creator Zoe Quinn on Patreon since January 6, 2014. This means that he automatically gives Quinn money on a monthly basis.
Despite this, on March 19, 2014, Ben Kuchera wrote an article for Polygon entitled, "Developer Zoe Quinn offers real-world advice, support for dealing with online harassment," which discusses Quinn's claims that she had been harassed and links to the Depression Quest website.

If funding someones game, and then writing about that persons game in your article isn't a conflict of interest, please tell me what is?

also, source to http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/commen...dez_of_kotaku/

[Mormolyce]

Not really. Why try and cover this shit up or rather why would even certain forums cover this shit up? If nothing happened there would be no need of this big as hell backlash. It's asinine and just goes against your perceptions of the situation. It's just silly.

And the proof that she "covered this up" is?

What I saw on the TFYC scandal was this: a businessman tries to make a venture which capitalises on the lack of women game designers and claims he's doing it to help promote them (without revealing his identity). Some people on twitter, including but not limited to Zoe (whose tweets only show her asking probing questions about the game jam this guy was planning) asked pointed questions about the remuneration these women would get for their work (8%) and were unsatisfied with the answers, so they created a lot of negative publicity that eventually resulted in him abandoning the venture.

Maybe his intentions were pure, maybe not, either way this is pretty standard in this kind of industry. And twitter.

The idea that this woman is some kind of slutty criminal mastermind who's slept with the entire internet to put this planned game jam thing out of business and cover it up on everything from Kotaku to 4chan is beyond comical.

[Dugna]

The TFYC issue has nothing to do with either her sex life or the reviews she got for some games (or didn't), the fact that you're all talking about her character and personal life is a sign of what this really is, a smear campaign.

But the issue with TFYC does have to do with how corrupt she is how she is a complete bold face liar and uses said lies and said friends in the industry to destroy perfectly good things just so she can profit. Which then leads to her being in bed (both allegedly or figuratively) not the far of stretch and since it has been confirmed by even Kotaku that she has had relationships with Nathan Grayson it calls into question anything involving good press about her especially with the conveniently skipped part I mentioned earlier of journalists like Ben kuchera literally funding her next game only to continue to give her good press. Even better about all of this is that she even admits that she has cheated on this ex-BF who called her out saying that's her personal life. Here's the thing though if she even admits to all of this and said "Journalist" sites even admit to it, it proves how much of Ex-BF post is true. http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/ Here is her Tumblr admitting the ex boyfriend is actually her EX and not even trying to say that didn't do any of that. http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive...pos-1624707346 here is kotaku admitting they had a romantic relationship.

[Marthenil]

I don't care that she slept with five guys. The problem is that she used those connection to silence discussion and news.

The problem is clearly not her. She did what she "had" to do. The problem is people accepting sexual favors for other stuff.

[Mormolyce]

Really because what she did to TFYC is pretty morally and ethically bankrupt considering the initial premise of TFYC AND the Olive branch they extended to her.

If you accept TFYC's side of the story rather than hers and whoever all these other people on twitter were.

Basically, is 8% a reasonable cut of the profits of those games, or is that essentially exploiting the designers? Note that this is the figure that the guy who started TFYC said himself in the video, so it's not in question.

I have no idea whether it is or isn't as I don't work in the industry, but I can see why he got bad PR.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

And the proof that she "covered this up" is?

What I saw on the TFYC scandal was this: a businessman tries to make a venture which capitalises on the lack of women game designers and claims he's doing it to help promote them (without revealing his identity). Some people on twitter, including but not limited to Zoe (whose tweets only show her asking probing questions about the game jam this guy was planning) asked pointed questions about the remuneration these women would get for their work (8%) and were unsatisfied with the answers, so they created a lot of negative publicity that eventually resulted in him abandoning the venture.

Maybe his intentions were pure, maybe not, either way this is pretty standard in this kind of industry. And twitter.

The idea that this woman is some kind of slutty criminal mastermind who's slept with the entire internet to put this planned game jam thing out of business and cover it up on everything from Kotaku to 4chan is beyond comical.

A Youtuber named MundaneMatt got pulled down due to *Copyright infringement* What actually happened was he just used a still(Which again shouldn't get a DMCA claim) to discuss something. His channel gets shut down. Shit hits the fan and all this Quinn scandal starts and places like 4chan, Redit and other places were having deleted posts to cover it up. There's evidence of this on Youtube if you look it up.

I don't sign onto something easily. I doubted myself once but so much shit is out there it's practically near undenyable

The idea that this woman is some kind of slutty criminal mastermind who's slept with the entire internet to put this planned game jam thing out of business and cover it up on everything from Kotaku to 4chan is beyond comical.

Strawman, nobody even fucking said she's a mastermind but she did do some badshit along with the gaming journalists.

[Zython]

The TFYC issue has nothing to do with either her sex life or the reviews she got for some games (or didn't), the fact that you're all talking about her character and personal life is a sign of what this really is, a smear campaign.

I think this is the saddest part of the whole thing. People have made this about Zoe, when it should be about the journalists that she influence, as well as those influenced with bribes and favors by AAA companies. Some people have managed to keep their eyes on the ball, but I think people have let themselves get distracted by what Zoe Quinn and Phil Fish were doing to focus on the core issue at play.

On a completely unrelated note, while I am glad to see support in women in gaming via TFYC (though their tumblr makes me question if they have an acute understanding of broader societal issues), I'm really uncomfortable with taking support from 4chan. I've been around there for a bit, and I really don't think that people should look at a community that literally uses a derogatory term for homosexuals as a suffix (among a whole host of other things) as a champion of women's causes. Vivian reminds me of token minority characters in conservative political webcomics, which are used as mouthpieces for their own agenda, as finding someone of that demographic to agree with them is difficult. It's great that they're doing this (even if it is out of spite), but I would like to see them more stringently enforce some community standards at least in regards to misogyny to show that they're serious.

[Jakexe]

If you accept TFYC's side of the story rather than hers and whoever all these other people on twitter were.

Basically, is 8% a reasonable cut of the profits of those games, or is that essentially exploiting the designers? Note that this is the figure that the guy who started TFYC said himself in the video, so it's not in question.

I have no idea whether it is or isn't as I don't work in the industry, but I can see why he got bad PR.

I thought the profits were going to a charity and the actual developers, not the female they wanted to come up with just an idea, were doing it for free. So the female would be getting 8% for basically having an idea. That seems reasonable to me, albeit I could be mistaken. So much information has started to get me lost in this whole thing.

[Daara]

A wild white knight has appeared.

Fight_______Bag
Pokemon____Run

Please post productively. Infracted. -Edge

[Mormolyce]

The Gams_Jam project is still a steaming corpse at her feet, which she helped kill

Um, she did not "help kill" that thing.

Sorry can't see that image at work, must be the filter or something.

As I said, those posts only opened the door to a much bigger scandal, involving the journalists. I don't care who she slept with. I mean, just by the standards of Kotakus own site their journalists violated policies, and I can prove it!

In the midst of the Zoe Quinn scandal, Kotaku editor-in-chief Stephen Totilo gave a statement affirming Kotaku's standard of ethics:
My standard has long been this: reporters who are in any way close to people they might report on should recuse themselves


Twitter conversations here, here, here, and here show that Patricia Hernandez, a Kotaku journalist, and Anna Anthropy, an indie game developer, are close friends who have lived together in the past.
Despite this, Patricia Hernandez has written positive reviews of Anna Anthropy's games and book for Kotaku here, here, here, and here.

Also, Polygon writer Ben Kuchera has a been supporter of Depression Quest creator Zoe Quinn on Patreon since January 6, 2014. This means that he automatically gives Quinn money on a monthly basis.
Despite this, on March 19, 2014, Ben Kuchera wrote an article for Polygon entitled, "Developer Zoe Quinn offers real-world advice, support for dealing with online harassment," which discusses Quinn's claims that she had been harassed and links to the Depression Quest website.

If funding someones game, and then writing about that persons game in your article isn't a conflict of interest, please tell me what is?

also, source to http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/commen...dez_of_kotaku/

Hey, if you're trying to say that the indie game market is nepotistic then my answer is duh. It's a tiny semi-hobbyist market, it's inevitable, and not always necessarily bad.

Honestly, the core idea that the "gaming press" is somehow failing standards of professional conduct is ridiculous. They're not professionals, like, at all. Some of them make money from it. But if you go on a game website and expect them to be Walter Cronkite, you're a very silly person.

P.S. Considering the amount of hate I've seen in even a cursory look at this "scandal" there is nothing out of the ordinary in her posting about online bullying.

[eillas]

I think this is the saddest part of the whole thing. People have made this about Zoe, when it should be about the journalists that she influence, as well as those influenced with bribes and favors by AAA companies. Some people have managed to keep their eyes on the ball, but I think people have let themselves get distracted by what Zoe Quinn and Phil Fish were doing to focus on the core issue at play.

On a completely unrelated note, while I am glad to see support in women in gaming via TFYC (though their tumblr makes me question if they have an acute understanding of broader societal issues), I'm really uncomfortable with taking support from 4chan. I've been around there for a bit, and I really don't think that people should look at a community that literally uses a derogatory term for homosexuals as a suffix (among a whole host of other things) as a champion of women's causes. Vivian reminds me of token minority characters in conservative political webcomics, which are used as mouthpieces for their own agenda, as finding someone of that demographic to agree with them is difficult. It's great that they're doing this (even if it is out of spite), but I would like to see them more stringently enforce some community standards at least in regards to misogyny to show that they're serious.

Vivian has a potential of becoming an iconic character in gaming. She represents the ideas of "Let's just game, I don't care who you are. I just need a second player."

[Jester Joe]

If you accept TFYC's side of the story rather than hers and whoever all these other people on twitter were.

Basically, is 8% a reasonable cut of the profits of those games, or is that essentially exploiting the designers? Note that this is the figure that the guy who started TFYC said himself in the video, so it's not in question.

I have no idea whether it is or isn't as I don't work in the industry, but I can see why he got bad PR.

Is that really a reason through to attack and shut down their indiegogo? It's not like they were hiding the fact of it, it's flat out right there. Anyone who went for it would know exactly what they're getting into.

Yet on the other hand...what happened to Zoe's charity event?

[Mormolyce]

A wild white knight has appeared.

FightaaaaaaBag
PokemonaaaRun

Sorry I interrupted your circlejerk, hope I didn't knock over the big jug of hatorade.

Please post productively. Infracted. -Edge

[Zvinny]

Is that really a reason through to attack and shut down their indiegogo? It's not like they were hiding the fact of it, it's flat out right there. Anyone who went for it would know exactly what they're getting into.

Yet on the other hand...what happened to Zoe's charity event?

So far there is no date, and as far as I can tell she has no info on where or what it will actually entail. In fact the only thing she has said about it that I can find is where you can donate money.

[Daara]

Sorry I interrupted your circlejerk, hope I didn't knock over the big jug of hatorade.

Sorry that you can't differentiate hatred of personality and actions from hatred of gender.

[Mormolyce]

I thought the profits were going to a charity and the actual developers, not the female they wanted to come up with just an idea, were doing it for free. So the female would be getting 8% for basically having an idea. That seems reasonable to me, albeit I could be mistaken. So much information has started to get me lost in this whole thing.

That's not what he said in the video, then again he's a little sketchy on the details. Like how he says he makes no money but kind of skims over the detail that of course he does if the game makes a profit, just like the way the 8% works. Otherwise it's 8% of nothing.

I'm unclear on how the development itself was going to work.

[Dugna]

If you accept TFYC's side of the story rather than hers and whoever all these other people on twitter were.

Basically, is 8% a reasonable cut of the profits of those games, or is that essentially exploiting the designers? Note that this is the figure that the guy who started TFYC said himself in the video, so it's not in question.

I have no idea whether it is or isn't as I don't work in the industry, but I can see why he got bad PR.

No because if you actually listened to what the leader of TFYC said is that he's taking unexperienced women who are interested in making games giving them FREE funding to make said game and guess what? THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO ANY OF THE WORK, being that he hired many experienced people to help these women make the games and all they had to do was come up with an idea. So for nothing they could have their idea funded for FREE and worked on for FREE while they get 8% of the profits for work they barely did anything with and guess what is even better they get to keep ALL of the IP right for themselves. Before you bring up "Well I bet the women who worked on this project where woefully underpaid or not at all" He even states https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d6Q3VpqXyk here and https://soundcloud.com/super-admin/tfyc-confession here that each women involved was paid the right amount of money for their work.

[Mormolyce]

Sorry that you can't differentiate hatred of personality and actions from hatred of gender.

So is that green hatorade vs. orange hatorade?

[Daara]

No because if you actually listened to what the leader of TFYC said is that he's taking unexperienced women who are interested in making games giving them FREE funding to make said game and guess what? THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO ANY OF THE WORK, being that he hired many experienced people to help these women make the games and all they had to do was come up with an idea. So for nothing they could have their idea funded for FREE and worked on for FREE while they get 8% of the profits for work they barely did anything with and guess what is even better they get to keep ALL of the IP right for themselves. Before you bring up "Well I bet the women who worked on this project where woefully underpaid or not at all" He even states https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d6Q3VpqXyk here and https://soundcloud.com/super-admin/tfyc-confession here that each women involved was paid the right amount of money for their work.

It's quite easy for white knights to ignore details. It's pretty obvious that any profits it would make would go to charity.