Echo of the Elements on the other hand, I completely disagree. It's just like you said, a "mini ascendance." If that's the case why do we need it? We already have 2 ways to reset the cooldown of Lava Burst, with Lava Surge and Ascendance. Echo is redundant and locks Elemental down more so than it should be. Echo is also completely horrid whilst Ascendance is active, it grants the same effect. Lava Surge during Ascendance is not as bad as you claim it to be. Lava Surge > Echo in that you do not have to hardcast your next Lava Burst and instead it is instant. Echo is inferior to Lava Surge, and I'm not getting what you are saying about about "It shortens your LvB cast by 0.5 seconds before haste is taken into account" It's not a matter of "if you don't like it, don't take it", if people don't like the talent then it shouldn't be there in the first place. I want my talents to be as close to being equal in output as possible (obviously being completely equal is hard or impossible) while also being able to enjoy them regardless of what choice I take. I know for a fact plenty of Shaman do not like the talent selection going into WoD, especially seeing as they are lackluster at best. Liquid Magma for one was looking to be a great talent damage-wise but the fact that it's attached to a fire totem really made me dislike it.