Celestalon insight about rogues (not mentioned in mmo-champion blue posts)

[Deleted]

Well, then answer me this: Why don't you just reroll?

What a good question! I have 52 reputations on exalted on my rogue, unattainable weapons and armour, titles and many of my achievements were made on that character. As much as I love WoW, I would not do the Insane on a second character. Or as much as I love PvP, I don't think I could get Justicar again. And I could never get back things like ... Dirge's Kickin' Chimaerok Chops for example even if I wanted.

Well, I think it's safe to assume it won't go live that way.

I mean, that's not to say I expect all issues to be solved by launch but a top tier talent not being a DPS increase will probably be something they tweak numbers on.

Obviously I have some criticism of the class as evident from this thread, but I'm not so cynical that I don't expect them to be doing more numbers passes throughout the beta. So I'm not worried about that. I mean, it still might not end up being the talent we pick but I expect it to end up at least a DPS increase.

I sure hope you're right. Yet having been there for the launches of WotLK and Cata and seeing how rogue stood then all the way to second patch of each of said expansions when some changes were brought to boost them up finally makes me a bit suspicious. I can still remember how they gave the dagger legendary to rogues as they were the least played class back then. And it was because they were lagging behind and had become stale.

They really had the chance to make the specs stand out and give rogues some meaningful choices. But they passed it again "because rogues are reliable".

[Packing an i5]

Im really dissapointed with the minimal work done to this class for this upcoming xpac but Ive accepted theres nothing i can do about it besides not buy it and not play its just really painful because I cant find another game to waste time on thats as fun as wow use to be.

I want more meaningful Talent options at least I never asked for a complete overhaul though the gameplay feels stale , mostly unchanged after all this time. I would argue mutilate is the most changed spec from vanilla to now but it hasn't really changed since wrath and the least changed is combat.

[Willoughby]

I keep seeing people pointing to DfA acting like it solves our issues without knowing how garbage the thing actually is

DFA wouldn't be bad at all if it was tuned properly. Make the inconvenience of losing autoattacks and control of your character clearly worthwhile and it'll suddenly become a fun button to press (KS comes to mind).

The worst of the three lvl 100 talents is Shadow Reflection. It just doesn't introduce any interesting gameplay because you'd simply stack it with other cooldowns and forget it exists. They pruned Shadow Blades for that exact reason but Shadow Blades actually did briefly change gameplay in a limited capacity.

Lemon Zest is boring in single target situations but it's fun the same way multi-rupturing is fun as Assassination in multi-target situations and feels really nice when you get your poisons up. It's situational, and that's a good thing for a talent.

[Sesshou]

DFA wouldn't be bad at all if it was tuned properly. Make the inconvenience of losing autoattacks and control of your character clearly worthwhile and it'll suddenly become a fun button to press (KS comes to mind).

No, it really still would be. Lets load rogues up with more required for your dps rotation attacks that either literally can't be used due to being the only class with positional requirements or just can't be used because they force your character into an unsafe spot on the ground. Its one of those 'cool in theory' ideas but...

Though yes if they made it do enough damage (doubtful due to pvp imo) and fixed getting cc'd during it, that would help out a lot.

[Lesane]

I'm fairly certain that warlords will be the darkest time for Rogues. I imagine our population will absolutely plummet and that in 7.0 the devs will have no choice but to actually revamp the class and give it the flavor, uniqueness and fixes it needs.

I'm fairly certain it won't be like that. People said the same for MOP, but that was actually one of the better expansions for Rogues PVE-wise at least. I still remember the excessive crying during 5.0 and 5.1 about slow energy regen, probably by FOTM rerollers who only experienced rogues with legendary daggers. They were only overshadowed by ridiculously OP warlocks and vengeance-whoring tanks. The rogue population will probably drop, but I don't see how that's a bad thing for veteran rogue players. It just means less competition.

Rogues have issues and are probably the least changed class in the game, but rogue gameplay is mostly fine. It's really just the talents that can be made more interesting. The rotations and such are fine.

[Emophia]

Also DfA can't be used in areas with low ceilings. Like under the bride in blades edge arena, you press it and nothing happens. Such a half assed implementation of a talent...

[Willoughby]

No, it really still would be. Lets load rogues up with more required for your dps rotation attacks that either literally can't be used due to being the only class with positional requirements or just can't be used because they force your character into an unsafe spot on the ground. Its one of those 'cool in theory' ideas but...

Though yes if they made it do enough damage (doubtful due to pvp imo) and fixed getting cc'd during it, that would help out a lot.

It puts you in a potentially unsafe position for like 2 seconds. Easily planned around and acceptable if it's a worthwhile button to press.

[Hitei]

I'm fairly certain it won't be like that. People said the same for MOP, but that was actually one of the better expansions for Rogues PVE-wise at least. I still remember the excessive crying during 5.0 and 5.1 about slow energy regen, probably by FOTM rerollers who only experienced rogues with legendary daggers. They were only overshadowed by ridiculously OP warlocks and vengeance-whoring tanks. The rogue population will probably drop, but I don't see how that's a bad thing for veteran rogue players. It just means less competition.

Rogues have issues and are probably the least changed class in the game, but rogue gameplay is mostly fine. It's really just the talents that can be made more interesting. The rotations and such are fine.

What? Mists was the expansion where a brand new class that people have to level from 1-90 grew to the verge of passing our population numbers at 90. After Blizzard specifically said that Monk numbers were really low, in part due to the leveling requirement that DKs didn't suffer from.

Population drop is a solid sign of a class having problems. Plenty of "veteran rogue players" are upset with the current state and complete neglect of rogues post wrath. What competition do you think you're winning by having no one play rogues? Rolling on daggers?

Rogue gameplay is not mostly fine. It is numerically solid. Functionally it is stale, out-of-date, boring, and far too passive. Aesthetically it is severely lacking. It lacks identitiy, increasingly lacks uniqueness and out-of-combat utility and has the worst state of talents in the game.

Rotations are not fine when 60%+ of your damage comes from auto-attacking and you are spending more then 30% of your time just waiting to be able to attack.

[Sesshou]

It puts you in a potentially unsafe position for like 2 seconds. Easily planned around and acceptable if it's a worthwhile button to press.

No, it isn't. I'm not talking about just in general having to watch where it is going to put you like shadow step or the fact that it locks you in an animation where you can potentially get targetted by something bad. I'm talking about flat out being unable to hit the ability for long periods of time because there is just some either permanent or long lasting boss mechanic right in the way. If they actually make it worthwhile to press, we get balanced around it, and then when we just can't use it, we suffer massively.

[Maelstrom51]

Well, I think it's safe to assume it won't go live that way.

Don't get your hopes up.

As somebody who has been playing a rogue for several expansions now, I expect DfA to be trash on release, revisited sometime between 6.1 and 6.3, and then buffed to be the mandatory talent in that row.

Which will suck even more than being a trash talent given that its a self CC that lasts about a second and can land you in a boss's frontal cone.

Also, combo points will not be fixed until the next expansion.

[Deleted]

What a good question! I have 52 reputations on exalted on my rogue, unattainable weapons and armour, titles and many of my achievements were made on that character. As much as I love WoW, I would not do the Insane on a second character. Or as much as I love PvP, I don't think I could get Justicar again. And I could never get back things like ... Dirge's Kickin' Chimaerok Chops for example even if I wanted.

None of these things would be lost, you just have them on a different character. Most achievements and titles are shared anyway, and unattainable armor and weapons don't benefit you in day-day play. For showing-off purposes, you can always log on your rogue.

Argument: Dispelled.

[Deleted]

I'm fairly certain it won't be like that. People said the same for MOP, but that was actually one of the better expansions for Rogues PVE-wise at least. I still remember the excessive crying during 5.0 and 5.1 about slow energy regen, probably by FOTM rerollers who only experienced rogues with legendary daggers. They were only overshadowed by ridiculously OP warlocks and vengeance-whoring tanks. The rogue population will probably drop, but I don't see how that's a bad thing for veteran rogue players. It just means less competition.

Rogues have issues and are probably the least changed class in the game, but rogue gameplay is mostly fine. It's really just the talents that can be made more interesting. The rotations and such are fine.

It was not just FOTM rerollers (that indeed probably did reroll for that legendary a tier earlier) that complained about the slow energy regen but also long time veterans. That, together with the levelling experience that put the finger on the problem, was for me the moment I started to dislike how passive the rogue was (because despite the lack of energy I still competed for DPS top because they did a good job at numbers tuning, passive numbers that is)

The famous quote “haste will fix it” sure was infuriating at that time because it did not solve the issue at that time. And it still is because of the dismissive character of it. It was like: “yes you have a problem, but I don’t care because your gear next year will make it go away”. I should have said then : “fine, I will start paying next year …”


I wonder if we had better not had the legendary daggers, I wonder how the rogue population would be right now without them. Would we have gone down even more, actually finally justifying a review of the class? I wish I had a magic orb…

Last weekend I was wondering : “are there really problems with the class, or is it just me, is it because I have been playing it for 8 years now and am getting bored with the class?”

Yes, part of the problem will probably boil down to that.

But I was discussing this with a friend and she asked me:

“if you are getting bored with a class, isn’t that because it has too little new to offer over time? My class is changed every expansion, and sometimes I am a bit irritated that I have to relearn it again and I sometimes wish my class is as stable as the rogue. But then I realize this also means a challenge and it keeps me from getting bored. I get a new class every expansion, while still keeping the main aspects of the gameplay for which I chose the class. ”

I was also talking on teamspeak with our guild leader about WoD, and what he said was:
“Well going into MoP, I would never have rolled a rogue, just by looking at your talent tree, what an underwhelming mess was that! You sure did get the short end of the stick there, especially when I look at my own tree! But I am happy to have you in my raids because you can make that difference between killing and a 1% wipe. You know your class well.
I could easily understand if you would decide to roll another class, because from what I see, things will not change soon for you.”

He, being a paladin, could also not understand why the CP on rogue was not handled like they had handled his holy power system, because “the logic is there, so why not use it?”

These two persons have put the finger on my sore spot I guess.
The every dwindling population numbers (that some people still seem to deny somehow, while it is blatantly visibly obvious, and not just a feeling, but hard figures.) sure support the feeling my guild leader had: people are not thrilled to start playing a rogue. And I doubt that will be different for WoD.
Question remains: is that because of the rogue class being unattractive, or the other classes being more appealing? Or a combination of both?

[Deleted]

Absolutely none of this indicates a need for passive damage.

Dual weild = Attacking with both weapons, see mut.
Fast-weapon = Hitting attacks a lot. No need for passive damage, provide rapid energy regen and put damage on active abilities.
poison-centric = See envenom. "Poison" can be made active and more interesting, the spec just needs more things of a poison nature that are active.

I would really like to see ONE valid, rational, logical argument answering the following question:

Why is an ability I actively use, that does a large yellow number supposedly better, than an ability that I actively use which buffs my passive damage output?

The answer: "Because I like big numbers." is not a rational explanation, its purely emotional.
The answer: "Because it requires more skill." is wrong, because in both cases, its the player pressing or not pressing a button.
The answer: "Because the first requires timing." is wrong, because if these spells make the majority of the spec, they are used regularly.

So please guys, answer the question. Because I am getting a bit tired of people just repeating statements which are purely based on their personal preferences ad nauseam, and try to present it as a valid argument. Want big yellow hits? There are classes for that.

[Deleted]

None of these things would be lost, you just have them on a different character. Most achievements and titles are shared anyway, and unattainable armor and weapons don't benefit you in day-day play. For showing-off purposes, you can always log on your rogue.

Argument: Dispelled.

Unobtainable armor might not change the performance of the character, but It sure gives the player some sort of satisfaction, which can be more important to the player in question than you would expect.
If it comes to titles: a lot of titles are not accountbound and require you to do the achievement/content again on your new character.
If I am correct, you also cannot buy gear, recipes and special items from reputation vendors unless you have done the rep on that perticular character, even if you have done the rep on another character. (not 100% sure of this however, I have to check)

How that other person feels about it, sure counts as an argument i.m.o.
While it does not invalidate your opinion, I guess more people disagree with you about it than agree.

My source:

http://cynwise.wordpress.com/2014/01...r-patch-5-4-2/

Which has taken data from Realmpop and World of Wargraphs who, on their turn, distill data from the servers.
What this data says is: people are abandoning the rogue class.

Somewhere in the blog you can find this statement:

Without substantial changes to the class play style or a substantial carrot offered to players of these two classes(warrior and rogue), I don’t see any real substantial changes for Rogues or Warriors until the next expansion, Warlords of Draenor.

Arguable is the question whether the same trend will continue in WoD, so would a number that went down convince you that something is wrong?

So don’t take my word for it, start questioning this source instead.

[Mormolyce]

What a good question! I have 52 reputations on exalted on my rogue, unattainable weapons and armour, titles and many of my achievements were made on that character. As much as I love WoW, I would not do the Insane on a second character.

That one is cross account.

[Deleted]

How that other person feels about it, sure counts as an argument i.m.o.

No, it doesn't. Not if the discussion revolves around a technical aspect of the class, which the desire to change our talents clearly does. As I pointed out, none of the listed items has ANYTHING to do with how the rogue class handles.

While it does not invalidate your opinion, I guess more people disagree with you about it than agree.

800 Years ago, most people agreed that the earth is flat. An argumentum ad populum is just a logical fallacy.

My source:

http://cynwise.wordpress.com/2014/01...r-patch-5-4-2/

This is not a source that validates your argument btw. as the class distribution allows no insight into the motivation for people abandoning it. I could as easily point out, that ranged classes have an advantage in a lot of SoO fights, and due to cleave being advantageous in 11/14 encounters, rouges are pretty much limited to one superior spec in 5.4 (combat). I could also point to the caster dominance in Arena games.

The statement you point out again isn't drawn from an actual poll of the playerbase, but reflects the opinion of someone looking at the graph, which represents only class distribution, not motivations. It might be correct, it might be wrong.

Arguable is the question whether the same trend will continue in WoD, so would a number that went down convince you that something is wrong?

What's even more arguable, is the question whether or not declining numbers in rogue players are a valid reason for concern. The rogues who do play, are more than welcome in raids (even more so now that there are much less rogues around) and perform top notch in their role. As long as these two factors don't change, I don't see a problem.
Lets say you are right, and people switch away from the rogue because of how it plays. So what? Apparently, they find what they seek in another class, while the rogue continues to cater perfectly to those, who enjoy its playstyle.

Don't you think its a bit arrogant to demand that a playstyle I and a lot of other rogues (6.6% of the playerbase are still about half a million people) enjoy playing, is taken away from us, despite the fact that the style you apparently want is present within the same game, just because you think your personal opinion matters more than ours?

[Deleted]

No, it doesn't. Not if the discussion revolves around a technical aspect of the class, which the desire to change our talents clearly does. As I pointed out, none of the listed items has ANYTHING to do with how the rogue class handles.

The whole discussion revolves around how people percieve their class, not just how it technically plays. Most people that complain feel as if their class is not impactful in the talent department.

800 Years ago, most people agreed that the earth is flat. An argumentum ad populum is just a logical fallacy.

We are not 800 years ago, where people were kept dumb by the church and the people who ruled, for the sole reason of being able to control them better.
Now people are much more informed and guess what happens? They abandon the class.
(if you do not dismiss every source you find about it, that is)
I am sure they do that because they are uninformed, stupid and don’t know how to enjoy the class and because you know your logical phallacies.

This is not a source that validates your argument btw.

Wow you just went there, didn’t you? You ask for a source for the rogue population going down, I give you a source, and you dismiss that source as invalid…

as the class distribution allows no insight into the motivation for people abandoning it. I could as easily point out, that ranged classes have an advantage in a lot of SoO fights, and due to cleave being advantageous in 11/14 encounters, rouges are pretty much limited to one superior spec in 5.4 (combat). I could also point to the caster dominance in Arena games.

The drop in numbers during the first patch of MoP might not give us the exact reason why people abondon the class, but sure points towards ‘there is a problem’ because why would people abandon the class if everything is okay? Let me ask you: what do you think is the reason why people leave?

The reason why people start playing combat is i.m.o not just the cleave potential, it is also because the spec just does more dps ST too (which you can prove in a lot of ways, but since you are so prone in having sources: Raidbots is one of them, but not the only one), thanks to gear scaling and trinkets being better suited for the spec.
Even if rogues would be limited to one spec because of the cleave potential, don’t you think that Blizzard has failed in encounter design, in spec/gear design and/or in tuning?

If you point out towards the caster domination: not a problem for rogues?
Every single thing, from the population numbers going down, over being pinned down to one spec in SoO, to caster dominance in arenas only point to one thing: there is a problem with the class.
Yes there is no hard evidence, so it is not true…

The statement you point out again isn't drawn from an actual poll of the playerbase, but reflects the opinion of someone looking at the graph, which represents only class distribution, not motivations. It might be correct, it might be wrong.

Agree, the interpretation of the graph is subjective, except for one thing: the drop in numbers. Which you so willingly want to overlook.

What's even more arguable, is the question whether or not declining numbers in rogue players are a valid reason for concern. The rogues who do play, are more than welcome in raids (even more so now that there are much less rogues around) and perform top notch in their role. As long as these two factors don't change, I don't see a problem.
Lets say you are right, and people switch away from the rogue because of how it plays. So what? Apparently, they find what they seek in another class, while the rogue continues to cater perfectly to those, who enjoy its playstyle.

I think for blizzard it is a valid reason for concern, at least as a company I would be concerned if one of my classes does not seem to be popular. Especially since it is continuing for a few expacs already.

Don't you think its a bit arrogant to demand that a playstyle I and a lot of other rogues (6.6% of the playerbase are still about half a million people) enjoy playing, is taken away from us, despite the fact that the style you apparently want is present within the same game, just because you think your personal opinion matters more than ours?

I think I will refer back to earlier in this post, where you were talking about that logical phallacy, so you cannot say that all the people that keep playing the class are totally happy with it.
What the real question is is: how many of these players would be totally unhappy with changes?
So the class has to stay the same since you think it is okay, so you think your opinion matters more than others…
I could say that if you love the passive gameplay, then go play an affliction warlock. The style is present in the game after all.
The rogue archetype does not fit that description...

[Varabently]

My problem is that you can't expect every class to have groundbreaking changes every expac. It's just not necessary. Any changes should be to fix a problem. The rotation feels bad, there's not enough aoe, etc. Let's not fix a problem that doesn't exist. Let's not just make changes to say we made changes.

[truevalon]

My problem is that you can't expect every class to have groundbreaking changes every expac. It's just not necessary. Any changes should be to fix a problem. The rotation feels bad, there's not enough aoe, etc. Let's not fix a problem that doesn't exist. Let's not just make changes to say we made changes.

When was the last time rogues recieved groundbreaking changes?

[Deleted]

It is ok they have broken so many class's people will need there free 90 to re-roll to a none broken class.

If they have "broken" all the classes then what exactly will people reroll to?

- - - Updated - - -

When was the last time rogues recieved groundbreaking changes?

I'd say that personalized combat points are a groundbreaking change to rogues